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Rudra

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
By what cause and on which condition people become Rudras?

After becomimg Rudra, what's next? In "The Gathering of all Intentions" is pointed a sort of bucle in the lower realms but, that means that once Rudra there is almost no chance to stop that?

Re: Rudra

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:08 pm
by Grigoris
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 pm
By what cause and on which condition people become Rudras?
Unwholesome karma and ignorance.
After becomimg Rudra, what's next?
You stay a rudra until the karma that lead you to that rebirth peters out (or you are tamed/liberated by a practitioner) and the effects of the next strongest karma kicks in. It may take a while.

Re: Rudra

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:40 pm
by Sennin
"The Lamentation of Rudra" from the Stainless King of Confession tantra goes into this a bit. It's one of the most intense confessions and it never fails to illicit strong feelings of lament and remorse.

Re: Rudra

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:08 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 pm
By what cause and on which condition people become Rudras?
Unwholesome karma and ignorance.
After becomimg Rudra, what's next?
You stay a rudra until the karma that lead you to that rebirth peters out (or you are tamed/liberated by a practitioner) and the effects of the next strongest karma kicks in. It may take a while.
Mantrikas also can turn/fall to Rudras, no?

Re: Rudra

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 pm
by kirtu
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:08 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 pm
By what cause and on which condition people become Rudras?
Unwholesome karma and ignorance.
After becomimg Rudra, what's next?
You stay a rudra until the karma that lead you to that rebirth peters out (or you are tamed/liberated by a practitioner) and the effects of the next strongest karma kicks in. It may take a while.
Mantrikas also can turn/fall to Rudras, no?
I believe that being a kind of criminal mantrika is the only way one can become a rudra. It seems quite intentional.

Kirt

Re: Rudra

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:55 am
by javier.espinoza.t
kirtu wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:08 pm
Unwholesome karma and ignorance.
You stay a rudra until the karma that lead you to that rebirth peters out (or you are tamed/liberated by a practitioner) and the effects of the next strongest karma kicks in. It may take a while.
Mantrikas also can turn/fall to Rudras, no?
I believe that being a kind of criminal mantrika is the only way one can become a rudra. It seems quite intentional.

Kirt
But ignorance implies "not knowing", right? I mean, if I'm not knowing i'm doing wrong within vajrayana, then it is possible to become rudra, no?

Re: Rudra

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:39 am
by Lhasa
Would someone please expand a bit more on what a rudra is and how that relates to things like chanting the shri rudram in hinduism? And Kalachakra dancing on his head?

Re: Rudra

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:31 am
by javier.espinoza.t
Lhasa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:39 am
Would someone please expand a bit more on what a rudra is and how that relates to things like chanting the shri rudram in hinduism? And Kalachakra dancing on his head?
In Buddhis, Rudra is a myth, an archtype, of demon whose power has grown in an extent that makes him/her almost unruly. In Vedic knowledge there is also a Rudra whose definition i don't know.

A Rudra could born in the Preta realm for example, die and reborn in a Hells (in the bottom for example) each time from the bottom to the top Hell, to then reborn as a Preta again but more powerfull, and then to the botom of hells again, and so in a sort of bucle of hatred, desire and ignorance.

Examples of Rudra are those most powerful among the 8 classes of powerful beings, that wants to destroy Buddhadharma, aand/or the world, happiness, liberation possiblity, etc. those whose aim is to sistematicaly inflict suffering to others.


In ch. 1 of "THE GATHERING OF INTENTIONS, A History of a Tibetan Tantra" of Jacob P. Dalton (a text devoted to analize the origins of this fundamental Anuyoga Tantra), can be read:
The Rudra myth’s narrative arc follows the hapless future demon through countless previous births
up to his lifetime in this world as Rudra. His gradual rise to power, which culminates when he
becomes the most powerful mundane (laukika) god in the universe, begins at the very nadir of
existence, in the Avīci hell. Rudra-to-be is tortured incessantly for eighty thousand lifetimes and is
freed from this realm only thanks to his karmic connection to an earlier Buddhist teacher, Invincible
Youth, who has since become identical with Vajrasattva. Thus freed, Rudra moves up to the only
slightly less torturous Extremely Hot Hell for another eighty thousand lifetimes, then on up through a
series of lesser hells for several billion more lifetimes. “Finally,” we read, “the aeons at the
destruction of the universe came—the aeons of famine, of plague, and of war—and he took rebirth in
those. The devastations of those aeons emptied the worlds of everything. Yet even when all others had
been destroyed, [the future Rudra] continued to take rebirth.
and alike
The last seven aeons of the universe are thereby framed as Buddhist vehicles to enlightenment.
They represent the buddhas’ final effort to save, through extreme suffering, those who are so stubborn
as not to have been liberated before this late date. All this is exactly what Rudra-to-be undergoes at
the end of his extended sojourn in the hells. Unfortunately, he is so deeply engrossed in the three
poisons of desire, hatred, and ignorance that he remains unaffected: “Even when all others had been
destroyed, he continued to take rebirth.” Following the formation of a new universe, he gradually
rises up the rungs on the ladder of rebirth, taking the form of one terrible demon or another, until he is
finally born in our world...
it's origin are tales from various sources; but for practical matters, to me in my questions, Rudra means a corrupted one that aimed siddhis for mundane a development. something like that.

This is what i understand.

Re: Rudra

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:47 am
by kirtu
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:55 am
kirtu wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 pm


Mantrikas also can turn/fall to Rudras, no?
I believe that being a kind of criminal mantrika is the only way one can become a rudra. It seems quite intentional.

Kirt
But ignorance implies "not knowing", right? I mean, if I'm not knowing i'm doing wrong within vajrayana, then it is possible to become rudra, no?
None of the stories of beings becoming rudras that I am aware of talk about a person messing up ritual in Vajrayana or making simple mistakes or misunderstanding something basic. They all involve a being driven by ego who becomes a kind of "successful" mantrika, has some very severe and obvious issue and usually kills people intentionally as a result (usually at least their teacher). Following which they gain even more power. Then they are reborn as a powerful mantrik demon. It's basically intentional.

Kirt

Re: Rudra

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:07 am
by lelopa
Thus have I heard:
Rudra is "Ultra-Superego" and (more, or less) only a mantrika can become a Rudra!
It is the opposite of a mindful, compassionate Bodhisattva.

Source: i think it was Ch.Trungpa among others

Sometimes controversial Lamas/Teachers are called Rudras by their opponents....

Re: Rudra

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:06 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
kirtu wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:47 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:55 am
kirtu wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 pm


I believe that being a kind of criminal mantrika is the only way one can become a rudra. It seems quite intentional.

Kirt
But ignorance implies "not knowing", right? I mean, if I'm not knowing i'm doing wrong within vajrayana, then it is possible to become rudra, no?
None of the stories of beings becoming rudras that I am aware of talk about a person messing up ritual in Vajrayana or making simple mistakes or misunderstanding something basic. They all involve a being driven by ego who becomes a kind of "successful" mantrika, has some very severe and obvious issue and usually kills people intentionally as a result (usually at least their teacher). Following which they gain even more power. Then they are reborn as a powerful mantrik demon. It's basically intentional.

Kirt
i see you are right.

they chant the mantra "I".

Re: Rudra

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:26 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
Sennin wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:40 pm
"The Lamentation of Rudra" from the Stainless King of Confession tantra goes into this a bit. It's one of the most intense confessions and it never fails to illicit strong feelings of lament and remorse.
this.

it is necesary to have transmission for putting it into practice?

Re: Rudra

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:14 am
by tingdzin
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:26 pm
it is necesary to have transmission for putting it into practice?
I doubt it -- but if you've ever been to a prolonged Nyingmapa ceremony, you've probably received the lung as a matter of course. It's a profound practice if well-considered.

Re: Rudra

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:04 pm
by Pema Rigdzin
My two roots lamas told us a story once from an anuyoga tantra about a Dzogchen practitioner who took the non existence of good or bad in Dzogchen too literally, and thus forsook the relative for the absolute and went around harming and killing beings and was thus reborn as a powerful Rudra.

A tantra associated with Vajrakilaya also tells of how Kilaya appeared in the form of Rudra, but a bigger and badder version, in order to subjugate Rudra and his retinue and keep them from accumulating any further negative karma or harm to beings. It’s kind of a pitiful story; poor Rudra gets totally owned and becomes pretty pitiful, but then he gets his act together.