Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

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Arupajhana7
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Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Arupajhana7 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am

Hello all,

I am a recovering Shambhalian. In Shambhala we were taught that the "Sakyong" is an emenation of Manjushri and that doing Manjushri practice or any prayers with Manjushri in them would strengthen our karmic connection to the "Sakyong".

Given that it has come out that Mukpo has sexually abused many women I now feel quite negatively about him. I don't want to strengthen any karmic connections to him as a teacher.

I now have very negative emotions come up whenever I think about Manjushri too. I actively avoid prayers and practices that involve Manjushri.

I would like to believe that Manjushri is not actually uniquely tied to Osel Mukpo but this has been entrained in my mind quite strongly.

So I have two questions regarding Manjushri

1. Do you think Osel Mukpo is actually an emanation of Manjusjri? / what are some teachings that would imply less of this special connection than I was taught?

2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?

While I am here I also want to ask,

3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?

I know this is a controversial topic area so I am hoping not to ignite a flame war while still getting genuine answers to these questions. So if we can stick to the questions that would be great.

Thank you.

Arupajhana7
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Arupajhana7 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:09 am

Want to add that the reason I asked question number 3 is that I would like to study the works of Mipham the Great but have some resistance to it because of the association with Osel Mukpo.

So it is related in that it has become an obstacle to study in the same way that I have obstacles to Manjushri practices.

TrimePema
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by TrimePema » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:57 am

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am
Hello all,

I am a recovering Shambhalian. In Shambhala we were taught that the "Sakyong" is an emenation of Manjushri and that doing Manjushri practice or any prayers with Manjushri in them would strengthen our karmic connection to the "Sakyong".

Given that it has come out that Mukpo has sexually abused many women I now feel quite negatively about him. I don't want to strengthen any karmic connections to him as a teacher.

I now have very negative emotions come up whenever I think about Manjushri too. I actively avoid prayers and practices that involve Manjushri.

I would like to believe that Manjushri is not actually uniquely tied to Osel Mukpo but this has been entrained in my mind quite strongly.

So I have two questions regarding Manjushri

1. Do you think Osel Mukpo is actually an emanation of Manjusjri? / what are some teachings that would imply less of this special connection than I was taught?

2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?

While I am here I also want to ask,

3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?

I know this is a controversial topic area so I am hoping not to ignite a flame war while still getting genuine answers to these questions. So if we can stick to the questions that would be great.

Thank you.
It's definitely difficult. Never give up!

1. Depends on one's pure vision. Not sure what you mean by "uniquely tied" since there are hundreds of people who are known as "manjushri in person". I think that's what you mean, right? I feel like that is a title which is awarded to scholars of a certain caliber.

2. Maybe try a practice that is not written by SMR or Mipham the Great. There are other supposed emanations (maybe just one - not sure) of Mipham the Great, as well. If you have a connection with Mipham the Great, maybe it's worth taking a look? As for obstacles, I don't know but I would assume you could do any type of general obstacle removal and direct it towards the purification of this. Also Vajrasattva...

3. Not sure what you mean by Tibetan community - other lamas? I've heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche and Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche conversed about how sad what SMR was doing to CTR's lineage was (this was before the accusations). That being said, lots of people have lots of different views about most tulkus and some just have blind faith in any tulku or high lama. Maybe this is a matter of confidence in Penor Rinpoche since he recognized SMR? My understanding is that SMR is not a pure nirmanakaya and only manifests with close students. This I was told directly by multiple Acharyas and students.

Not all tulkus or rinpoches are pure nirmanakayas. Not all tulkus or rinpoches are nirmanakayas at all - some are just sentient beings who have been put in charge of the wellbeing of a certain organization or monastery. There is a western cult leader who is recognized by like 20 monasteries as a tulku of Maitreya. Tulku Orgyen Rinpoche said both 17 Karmapa tulkus should be treated equally respectfully as if they were both Karmapa because sentient beings would never be able to comprehend the inconceivable display of benefit of the Karmapa.

Anyway, I found this quotation from Virupa's dohas helpful.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... -doha.html

All negative disharmonious conditions are sublime siddhis,

since negative conditions intensify the yogin’s experience,
since one understands the true state of negative conditions
without avoiding them, train in them,
maintain that, and practice until coming to the conclusion
of experience and realization,
just as a good horse is encouraged by a quirt.

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heart
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by heart » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:44 am

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am
Hello all,

I am a recovering Shambhalian. In Shambhala we were taught that the "Sakyong" is an emenation of Manjushri and that doing Manjushri practice or any prayers with Manjushri in them would strengthen our karmic connection to the "Sakyong".

Given that it has come out that Mukpo has sexually abused many women I now feel quite negatively about him. I don't want to strengthen any karmic connections to him as a teacher.

I now have very negative emotions come up whenever I think about Manjushri too. I actively avoid prayers and practices that involve Manjushri.

I would like to believe that Manjushri is not actually uniquely tied to Osel Mukpo but this has been entrained in my mind quite strongly.

So I have two questions regarding Manjushri

1. Do you think Osel Mukpo is actually an emanation of Manjusjri? / what are some teachings that would imply less of this special connection than I was taught?

2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?

While I am here I also want to ask,

3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?

I know this is a controversial topic area so I am hoping not to ignite a flame war while still getting genuine answers to these questions. So if we can stick to the questions that would be great.

Thank you.
Tulkus is a subject that been discussed a lot in this forum. You can search for it and read it if you want. But my advice to you would be drop this subject. Drop Ösel Mukpo and the question if he is a tulku or not. Drop Shambala and the whole mess of emotions that comes with it. Do something wonderful and uplifting instead. I do understand that this is a difficult advice follow, I have some experience in leaving a Sangha. But the more you talk about it, the more you rehash what happened the less free you will be. Dharma is wonderful and it really works that is for sure. But not every teacher is a good match or even qualified in the times we live in. Also Tibetan Buddhism is not really organized in they way we imagine, there is really not a lot of consensus about anything nor a feeling that you are somehow responsible when giving someone a title such as Lama or Tulku. There is a whole web of family, clan and monastic pressure we know nothing about behind many appointments.

I would drop Manjusri also for the moment if it cause problems. Do something else.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Miroku
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Miroku » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:55 am

Maybe give yourself a space and try focusing on Chenrezig or Tara. Somewhere I have heard that Chenrezig is great when it comes to trauma.

I dont know much about Ösel, except for a fact that osel in Czech means donkey #funCzechfacts. I would not believe any claim about him bein' any reincarnation or anything and especially not claims of him being a vajrayana guru. As Magnus said, let it go. I'd drop all the practices from him and start with a fresh plate. Find a good teacher, tell him about it and work something out. If you are interested in Mipham then maybe finding some Nyingma guru would be cool why not. But if you have a hard time with it then maybe better not pursuit it for now. In vajrayana confidence in oneself, ones teacher and the transmission is of huge importance. So I'd say start fresh and let Ösel be Ösel.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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ratna
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by ratna » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:10 pm

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am
3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?
Mipham the Great said before his death that there he wouldn't be reborn in this world:
wrote:Now is a critical moment in these final times; the barbarians and so forth are close to destroying the teaching, so there is no point whatsoever in my taking rebirth. If this were the time of the brothers of sMin grol gling, it might have been possible to benefit sentient beings in all sorts of ways. Now, because of temporal contingencies, it is difficult. From now on, I will not be taking rebirth in impure realms."It is said that, staying only in pure realms and benefiting beings with magical emanations by the power of prayer, it is the nature of sublime beings to appear incessantly until the end of time.
From Beacon of Certainty, translated by John W. Pettit.

Tata1
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Tata1 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:53 pm

My two cents from a really low practitioner.

Dharma is not for reifying beliefs and thoughts. The thought that sakyon is legit is a thought. The thought that he isnt is another thought. Both are equally illusory. The same goes for your other doubts.
Soy maybe like other posts say just drop the whole.thing and try to see where all this dharma teachings are pointing at. And that is the illusory nature of ALL concepts

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Jangchup Donden » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:21 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:55 am
Maybe give yourself a space and try focusing on Chenrezig or Tara. Somewhere I have heard that Chenrezig is great when it comes to trauma.
I can also recommend Guru Rinpoche along these lines. My teacher says the 7 branch prayer is one of the most effective in overcoming obstacles.

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Malcolm
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:33 pm

ratna wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:10 pm
Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am
3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?
Mipham the Great said before his death that there he wouldn't be reborn in this world:
wrote:Now is a critical moment in these final times; the barbarians and so forth are close to destroying the teaching, so there is no point whatsoever in my taking rebirth. If this were the time of the brothers of sMin grol gling, it might have been possible to benefit sentient beings in all sorts of ways. Now, because of temporal contingencies, it is difficult. From now on, I will not be taking rebirth in impure realms."It is said that, staying only in pure realms and benefiting beings with magical emanations by the power of prayer, it is the nature of sublime beings to appear incessantly until the end of time.
From Beacon of Certainty, translated by John W. Pettit.
Well, just to play Devil's advocate, are you sure that he could not have had a change of heart and issued emanations to Jamdudvipa out of pity?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:37 pm

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am

Given that it has come out that Mukpo has sexually abused many women I now feel quite negatively about him. I don't want to strengthen any karmic connections to him as a teacher.

I now have very negative emotions come up whenever I think about Manjushri too. I actively avoid prayers and practices that involve Manjushri.

I would like to believe that Manjushri is not actually uniquely tied to Osel Mukpo but this has been entrained in my mind quite strongly.
Than don't believe it. It is that simple. It is not Mañjuśṛī's fault that Penor Rinpoche decided to recognize Mukpo as a reincarnation.

So I have two questions regarding Manjushri

1. Do you think Osel Mukpo is actually an emanation of Manjusjri? / what are some teachings that would imply less of this special connection than I was taught?


No, I do not believe this any more than I believe the earth is flat.

2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?
Go meet HH Sakya Trizin, Mañjuśṛī in person, and receive Mañjuśṛī practice from him.


While I am here I also want to ask,

3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?
There is no such consensus at all. Some people believe it, some don't.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:40 pm

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:09 am
Want to add that the reason I asked question number 3 is that I would like to study the works of Mipham the Great but have some resistance to it because of the association with Osel Mukpo.
That''s a pity.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

PeterC
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by PeterC » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:54 pm

I think you knew the answer to your first question before you posted. Look at it the other way. Consider the brilliance of Mipham and his writings. Consider how Manjusri is praised in so many profound texts. Then ask yourself whether Osel Mukpo could have anything to do with those two.

The door to the Vajrayana is the guru. If you wish to restore your faith in the practice of Manjusri, receive It again from a genuine guru who you can see as Manjusri in person. There are several out there.

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ratna
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by ratna » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:33 pm
Well, just to play Devil's advocate, are you sure that he could not have had a change of heart and issued emanations to Jamdudvipa out of pity?
Emanation, sure (the last sentence of his quote actually indicates the possibility of magical emanations). But reincarnation, well, he says no. To me it looks like he didn't want to get his name involved in the tulku business in any way.

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Malcolm
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:08 pm

ratna wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:33 pm
Well, just to play Devil's advocate, are you sure that he could not have had a change of heart and issued emanations to Jamdudvipa out of pity?
Emanation, sure (the last sentence of his quote actually indicates the possibility of magical emanations). But reincarnation, well, he says no. To me it looks like he didn't want to get his name involved in the tulku business in any way.
Well, it was a fruitless wish, wasn't it? There are two Mipham tulkus out there, at least.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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ratna
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by ratna » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:08 pm
ratna wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:33 pm
Well, just to play Devil's advocate, are you sure that he could not have had a change of heart and issued emanations to Jamdudvipa out of pity?
Emanation, sure (the last sentence of his quote actually indicates the possibility of magical emanations). But reincarnation, well, he says no. To me it looks like he didn't want to get his name involved in the tulku business in any way.
Well, it was a fruitless wish, wasn't it? There are two Mipham tulkus out there, at least.
There are probably more -- I think there was a Canadian guy who was recognized as his tulku and there's one in Delhi as well. Even Arya bodhisattvas cannot fight the forces of supply and demand.

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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:30 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:54 pm
I think you knew the answer to your first question before you posted. Look at it the other way. Consider the brilliance of Mipham and his writings. Consider how Manjusri is praised in so many profound texts. Then ask yourself whether Osel Mukpo could have anything to do with those two.

The door to the Vajrayana is the guru. If you wish to restore your faith in the practice of Manjusri, receive It again from a genuine guru who you can see as Manjusri in person. There are several out there.
:good:
Amitabha!
OM PADMO USHNISHA VIMALE HUM PHAT (Lotus Pinnacle of Amoghapasha)
OM HANU PHASHA BHARA HE YE SVAHA ("Just by Seeing" Mantra)
AH AAH SHA SA MA HA (Six Syllables of Clairvoyance Mantra)


The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by pueraeternus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:37 pm
2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?
Go meet HH Sakya Trizin, Mañjuśṛī in person, and receive Mañjuśṛī practice from him.
Just to clarify, do you mean the now Sakya Trichen (41st HHST) or the current 42nd HHST?
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Malcolm
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:15 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:37 pm
2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?
Go meet HH Sakya Trizin, Mañjuśṛī in person, and receive Mañjuśṛī practice from him.
Just to clarify, do you mean the now Sakya Trichen (41st HHST) or the current 42nd HHST?
Sakya Trichen, old habits die hard.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by pemachophel » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:49 pm

"Go meet HH Sakya Trizin, Mañjuśṛī in person, and receive Mañjuśṛī practice from him."

I second this piece of advice. Many Lamas also say H.H. Sakya Trizin is Guru Rinpoche in person. Impossible to go wrong with this Guru.

BTW, King Trisong Deutsen was also considered an emanation of Manjushri and, if you read the stories, He sometimes erroneously went against Guru Rinpoche's instructions (and suffered the consequences). As long as we have a human body, we make mistakes and that includes CTR, His Regent, OMR, etc. This is not just my opinion but I have heard this from many Lamas.

Also, perhaps you should give Saraswati a try.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by pemachophel » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:00 pm

To add to my above post, I was speaking about this issue with one of my Teachers a few weeks ago while on a long road-trip together. She said that, even if one is an authentic Tulku and recognized and enthroned as such, if the Tulku is not trained properly and thoroughly as a youth, They can be "spoiled" and become "useless" as a Tulku. (Her words, not mine.) I lived in the same town as OMR when He was growing up, and I am PDS He wasn't trained properly or thoroughly. It was just simply impossible growing up as He did in my city.

As an interesting corollary of this, this Teacher said that Her Teacher would not let any of His students, including Tulkus, come to the West to teach if A) they hadn't been throughly trained, B) hadn't shown definite self-control as well as other good qualities, and C) were not over 60 years of age. For me, the implication of this is that it takes very special training as well as time for even a Tulku's "wine to mature."
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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