New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

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Malcolm
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New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm

Discussion moved from here.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 am
Is one needed, or just a lung?
You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.

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Grigoris
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 am
Is one needed, or just a lung?
You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
I completed the full accumulations for the Kagyu Ngondro, but when I started practicing in the Dudjom Tersar; LOTR asked me to do accumulations of the concise Dudjom Tersar Ngondro too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 am
Is one needed, or just a lung?
You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
I completed the full accumulations for the Kagyu Ngondro, but when I started practicing in the Dudjom Tersar; LOTR asked me to do accumulations of the concise Dudjom Tersar Ngondro too.
And this is very excellent.

However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN. There is no reason for him to practice other termas when he can practice the fresh termas of his master from whom he has already received the full and complete transmission. If he wants to practice guru yoga, he can practice the guru yoga of the medium thun. It is no different at all from the guru yoga of Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingthig, etc., in meaning. And there is the ngondro practice in the Longsal teachings, mentioned above. I am just reminding him of this.

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Grigoris
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm
However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN.
Not trying to be disrespectful or anything, but what does it mean to have a root guru that is no longer incarnate? Especially in regards to their terma.

It is something that I have been thinking about in connection to my own teacher and his terma. My view is that one has to achieve a certain level of realisation before their teacher's passing, because after they are gone, one will not have anybody to rely on (unless, of course, others have achieved realisation before you have).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm
However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN.
Not trying to be disrespectful or anything, but what does it mean to have a root guru that is no longer incarnate? Especially in regards to their terma.
It means you have a root guru who has passed, that's all. It changes nothing.
It is something that I have been thinking about in connection to my own teacher and his terma. My view is that one has to achieve a certain level of realisation before their teacher's passing, because after they are gone, one will not have anybody to rely on (unless, of course, others have achieved realisation before you have).
One has the path the outer guru taught, which is the inner guru. This is what I am pointing out. As long has one has complete instructions, then one is going to be fine.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm


You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
I completed the full accumulations for the Kagyu Ngondro, but when I started practicing in the Dudjom Tersar; LOTR asked me to do accumulations of the concise Dudjom Tersar Ngondro too.
And this is very excellent.

However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN. There is no reason for him to practice other termas when he can practice the fresh termas of his master from whom he has already received the full and complete transmission. If he wants to practice guru yoga, he can practice the guru yoga of the medium thun. It is no different at all from the guru yoga of Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingthig, etc., in meaning. And there is the ngondro practice in the Longsal teachings, mentioned above. I am just reminding him of this.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 am
Is one needed, or just a lung?
You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
How do I even obtain that Ngondro? I don't remember if I received the lung for it either.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:38 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:17 pm
I completed the full accumulations for the Kagyu Ngondro, but when I started practicing in the Dudjom Tersar; LOTR asked me to do accumulations of the concise Dudjom Tersar Ngondro too.
And this is very excellent.

However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN. There is no reason for him to practice other termas when he can practice the fresh termas of his master from whom he has already received the full and complete transmission. If he wants to practice guru yoga, he can practice the guru yoga of the medium thun. It is no different at all from the guru yoga of Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingthig, etc., in meaning. And there is the ngondro practice in the Longsal teachings, mentioned above. I am just reminding him of this.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 am
Is one needed, or just a lung?
You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
How do I even obtain that Ngondro? I don't remember if I received the lung for it either.
CHNN gave this lung frequently. Just look up retreats you gave attended on line, and track down the lung list. I am 100 precent certain you will discover you have received this transmission. Anyway, there is nothing in any Ngondro that is missing from Medium Thun. You really do not need anything beyond the short, medium, and long thun practices. The only reason to do some other Ngondro is if you meet some Lama who insists that you must, and you are actually inspired to practice under their direction. But in the mean time, since this is not the case, you do not need this transmission at all.

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pueraeternus
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by pueraeternus » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:15 pm

Just to be clear, is it this book?

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=332


Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:38 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm


And this is very excellent.

However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN. There is no reason for him to practice other termas when he can practice the fresh termas of his master from whom he has already received the full and complete transmission. If he wants to practice guru yoga, he can practice the guru yoga of the medium thun. It is no different at all from the guru yoga of Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingthig, etc., in meaning. And there is the ngondro practice in the Longsal teachings, mentioned above. I am just reminding him of this.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm


You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
How do I even obtain that Ngondro? I don't remember if I received the lung for it either.
CHNN gave this lung frequently. Just look up retreats you gave attended on line, and track down the lung list. I am 100 precent certain you will discover you have received this transmission. Anyway, there is nothing in any Ngondro that is missing from Medium Thun. You really do not need anything beyond the short, medium, and long thun practices. The only reason to do some other Ngondro is if you meet some Lama who insists that you must, and you are actually inspired to practice under their direction. But in the mean time, since this is not the case, you do not need this transmission at all.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

Malcolm
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:35 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:15 pm
Just to be clear, is it this book?

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=332


Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:38 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm




How do I even obtain that Ngondro? I don't remember if I received the lung for it either.
CHNN gave this lung frequently. Just look up retreats you gave attended on line, and track down the lung list. I am 100 precent certain you will discover you have received this transmission. Anyway, there is nothing in any Ngondro that is missing from Medium Thun. You really do not need anything beyond the short, medium, and long thun practices. The only reason to do some other Ngondro is if you meet some Lama who insists that you must, and you are actually inspired to practice under their direction. But in the mean time, since this is not the case, you do not need this transmission at all.
Yes, and other texts.

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heart
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by heart » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:24 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:15 pm
Just to be clear, is it this book?

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=332
This is the book to get "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati" it contains a written commentary by Rinpoche.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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pueraeternus
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by pueraeternus » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:42 pm

Then that would be the Longsal Vol 3 book:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=327

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:24 pm
pueraeternus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:15 pm
Just to be clear, is it this book?

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=332
This is the book to get "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati" it contains a written commentary by Rinpoche.

/magnus
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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heart
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by heart » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:49 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:42 pm
Then that would be the Longsal Vol 3 book:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=327
No, for some reason it isn't available there, you have to go here, and also make an account to see it: https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/

It is called "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati". Part of these books, the Longsal commentary.

http://melong.com/news-from-ka-ter-translation-project/

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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pueraeternus
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by pueraeternus » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:03 pm

I see. Thanks.

This is interesting:
Also the work on the Dra Thalgyur Tantra is proceeding.

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:49 pm
pueraeternus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:42 pm
Then that would be the Longsal Vol 3 book:

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=327
No, for some reason it isn't available there, you have to go here, and also make an account to see it: https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/

It is called "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati". Part of these books, the Longsal commentary.

http://melong.com/news-from-ka-ter-translation-project/

/magnus
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

Sennin
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Sennin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:45 pm
Not trying to be disrespectful or anything, but what does it mean to have a root guru that is no longer incarnate? Especially in regards to their terma.

It is something that I have been thinking about in connection to my own teacher and his terma. My view is that one has to achieve a certain level of realisation before their teacher's passing, because after they are gone, one will not have anybody to rely on (unless, of course, others have achieved realisation before you have).
The MahaGuru CHNNR gave unsurpassed upadesha . That's like receiving the ticket to the last station. Choo choo.

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Grigoris
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:26 am

Sennin wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:30 pm
The MahaGuru CHNNR gave unsurpassed upadesha . That's like receiving the ticket to the last station. Choo choo.
If only it were so simple. My experience is that one needs a teacher on hand for when various issues come up and to explain details as they arise.

I have been on trains where in the middle of the night they split the train and send one section in one direction and the other elsewhere. I have also been on trains where you have to get off at a certain station and transfer to another train. If you did not read the ticket right (which is in a largely incomprehensible language) or were not informed by the conductor, you may end up in the completely wrong location.

Choo choo...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Sennin
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Sennin » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:57 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:26 am
Sennin wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:30 pm
The MahaGuru CHNNR gave unsurpassed upadesha . That's like receiving the ticket to the last station. Choo choo.
Choo choo...
;)

Sennin
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Sennin » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:26 am
Sennin wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:30 pm
The MahaGuru CHNNR gave unsurpassed upadesha . That's like receiving the ticket to the last station. Choo choo.
If only it were so simple. My experience is that one needs a teacher on hand for when various issues come up and to explain details as they arise.

I have been on trains where in the middle of the night they split the train and send one section in one direction and the other elsewhere. I have also been on trains where you have to get off at a certain station and transfer to another train. If you did not read the ticket right (which is in a largely incomprehensible language) or were not informed by the conductor, you may end up in the completely wrong location.

Choo choo...
I'm texting this at work so I have to keep it brief. I understand your point. I use to feel the need to be attached at the hip to the Guru. Now I don't.

Even so, for me it is that simple. Because for me to listen and apply the teachings of an awakened one, awakening is ensured.

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Grigoris
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:29 pm

Sennin wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I use to feel the need to be attached at the hip to the Guru. Now I don't.
Good on you! But I did not say anything about being attached at the hip. My teacher lives 5,432km away and I see him once a year for a week.

It is one thing to do practices that are taught as part of an established lineage and another thing to practice the terma of a specific teacher that are not part of a lineage collection (tersar). In the first instance any teacher that belongs to the lineage should have the experience to guide you, in the second instance...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
Posts: 31153
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:29 pm
Sennin wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I use to feel the need to be attached at the hip to the Guru. Now I don't.
Good on you! But I did not say anything about being attached at the hip. My teacher lives 5,432km away and I see him once a year for a week.

It is one thing to do practices that are taught as part of an established lineage and another thing to practice the terma of a specific teacher that are not part of a lineage collection (tersar). In the first instance any teacher that belongs to the lineage should have the experience to guide you, in the second instance...
By ChNN's design, there are plenty of senior DC instructors around to support people in this interim period.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:29 pm
Sennin wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:20 pm
I use to feel the need to be attached at the hip to the Guru. Now I don't.
Good on you! But I did not say anything about being attached at the hip. My teacher lives 5,432km away and I see him once a year for a week.

It is one thing to do practices that are taught as part of an established lineage and another thing to practice the terma of a specific teacher that are not part of a lineage collection (tersar). In the first instance any teacher that belongs to the lineage should have the experience to guide you, in the second instance...
By ChNN's design, there are plenty of senior DC instructors around to support people in this interim period.
There are, but honestly the impact is somewhat limited when all you can do is email someone, valuable as that can be at times. There are no gars near me or anything, no DC practitioners to meet up with. I personally don't want to attempt something like the Tuns simply from a book. The DC practices I do engage in I feel like I learned from Rinpoche during webcast retreats. On the other hand, I have other lineages that I can receive instruction in in person, and which I have already done a number of times with groups, so I know the melodies etc. somewhat, which was my idea with this Ngondro. I'm tabling the idea for now anyway as my interest in Ngondro has always run hot and cold.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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