New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

[Malcolm]

Good on you! But I did not say anything about being attached at the hip. My teacher lives 5,432km away and I see him once a year for a week.

It is one thing to do practices that are taught as part of an established lineage and another thing to practice the terma of a specific teacher that are not part of a lineage collection (tersar). In the first instance any teacher that belongs to the lineage should have the experience to guide you, in the second instance...

By ChNN's design, there are plenty of senior DC instructors around to support people in this interim period.

There are, but honestly the impact is somewhat limited when all you can do is email someone, valuable as that can be at times. There are no gars near me or anything, no DC practitioners to meet up with. I personally don't want to attempt something like the Tuns simply from a book. The DC practices I do engage in I feel like I learned from Rinpoche during webcast retreats. On the other hand, I have other lineages that I can receive instruction in in person, and which I have already done a number of times with groups, so I know the melodies etc. somewhat, which was my idea with this Ngondro. I'm tabling the idea for now anyway as my interest in Ngondro has always run hot and cold.

There are going to be many practice retreats in which you can participate, to learn this or that practice.

The thun practices are really not that daunting and can be easily learned from books and tapes.

[Johnny Dangerous]

By ChNN's design, there are plenty of senior DC instructors around to support people in this interim period.

There are, but honestly the impact is somewhat limited when all you can do is email someone, valuable as that can be at times. There are no gars near me or anything, no DC practitioners to meet up with. I personally don't want to attempt something like the Tuns simply from a book. The DC practices I do engage in I feel like I learned from Rinpoche during webcast retreats. On the other hand, I have other lineages that I can receive instruction in in person, and which I have already done a number of times with groups, so I know the melodies etc. somewhat, which was my idea with this Ngondro. I'm tabling the idea for now anyway as my interest in Ngondro has always run hot and cold.

There are going to be many practice retreats in which you can participate, to learn this or that practice.

The thun practices are really not that daunting and can be easily learned from books and tapes.

There are logistical problems there, such as working full time when most activities on web casts end up happening at 3am, but I hear you, where there's a will there's a way. Where can I learn the melodies to the Tuns ?

[Norwegian]

There are, but honestly the impact is somewhat limited when all you can do is email someone, valuable as that can be at times. There are no gars near me or anything, no DC practitioners to meet up with. I personally don't want to attempt something like the Tuns simply from a book. The DC practices I do engage in I feel like I learned from Rinpoche during webcast retreats. On the other hand, I have other lineages that I can receive instruction in in person, and which I have already done a number of times with groups, so I know the melodies etc. somewhat, which was my idea with this Ngondro. I'm tabling the idea for now anyway as my interest in Ngondro has always run hot and cold.

There are going to be many practice retreats in which you can participate, to learn this or that practice.

The thun practices are really not that daunting and can be easily learned from books and tapes.

There are logistical problems there, but I hear you, where can I learn the melodies to the Tuns ?

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=816
http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=346
http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=347

[Grigoris]

I use to feel the need to be attached at the hip to the Guru. Now I don't.

Good on you! But I did not say anything about being attached at the hip. My teacher lives 5,432km away and I see him once a year for a week.

It is one thing to do practices that are taught as part of an established lineage and another thing to practice the terma of a specific teacher that are not part of a lineage collection (tersar). In the first instance any teacher that belongs to the lineage should have the experience to guide you, in the second instance...

By ChNN's design, there are plenty of senior DC instructors around to support people in this interim period.

Which is exactly what I said before: In the absence of the terton you need somebody with some degree of realisation/accomplishemnt in the practice to guarantee it's continuation and to help you in your practice.

[Malcolm]

There are, but honestly the impact is somewhat limited when all you can do is email someone, valuable as that can be at times. There are no gars near me or anything, no DC practitioners to meet up with. I personally don't want to attempt something like the Tuns simply from a book. The DC practices I do engage in I feel like I learned from Rinpoche during webcast retreats. On the other hand, I have other lineages that I can receive instruction in in person, and which I have already done a number of times with groups, so I know the melodies etc. somewhat, which was my idea with this Ngondro. I'm tabling the idea for now anyway as my interest in Ngondro has always run hot and cold.

There are going to be many practice retreats in which you can participate, to learn this or that practice.

The thun practices are really not that daunting and can be easily learned from books and tapes.

There are logistical problems there, such as working full time when most activities on web casts end up happening at 3am, but I hear you, where there's a will there's a way. Where can I learn the melodies to the Tuns ?

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=346

[Malcolm]

Good on you! But I did not say anything about being attached at the hip. My teacher lives 5,432km away and I see him once a year for a week.

It is one thing to do practices that are taught as part of an established lineage and another thing to practice the terma of a specific teacher that are not part of a lineage collection (tersar). In the first instance any teacher that belongs to the lineage should have the experience to guide you, in the second instance...

By ChNN's design, there are plenty of senior DC instructors around to support people in this interim period.

Which is exactly what I said before: In the absence of the terton you need somebody with some degree of realisation/accomplishemnt in the practice to guarantee it's continuation and to help you in your practice.

Some people might need more assistance. But in fact ChNN also made a vast library of all of his secondary practices, including both his own termas and other lineage practices such as Green Tara, with complete explanations. One really has no need of more instruction about these secondary practices than what ChNN taught. Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, of course, cannot be learned from tapes and videos. But everything else can be.

[Grigoris]

Some people might need more assistance. But in fact ChNN also made a vast library of all of his secondary practices, including both his own termas and other lineage practices such as Green Tara, with complete explanations.

Which is great, but it is not enough. These are oral lineages. There nneed to be people that can give lung, that have accomplished the deity to the point where they can give empowerments, that have understood the instructions so that they can give tri. You cannot maintain a lineage (any lineage) merely through recorded means. That is what the Osho mob and the Goenka mob do, and we know how well that works!

One really has no need of more instruction about these secondary practices than what ChNN taught.

Of course they do. All sorts of experiences and obstacles arise which may not / cannot not be found in written explanations.

Again: I am not trying to be disrespectful. These are issues I have brought up in my teacher's Sangha too.

You guys are "lucky" to have recordings of teachings and commentaries. LOTR doesn't really let us record anything; his logic being that if a person knows a teaching is being recorded they will not give due attention, because they will believe they can refer later to the recording.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Some people might need more assistance. But in fact ChNN also made a vast library of all of his secondary practices, including both his own termas and other lineage practices such as Green Tara, with complete explanations.

Which is great, but it is not enough. These are oral lineages. There nneed to be people that can give lung, that have accomplished the deity to the point where they can give empowerments, that have understood the instructions so that they can give tri. You cannot maintain a lineage (any lineage) merely through recorded means. That is what the Osho mob and the Goenka mob do, and we know how well that works!

One really has no need of more instruction about these secondary practices than what ChNN taught.

Of course they do. All sorts of experiences and obstacles arise which may not / cannot not be found in written explanations.

Again: I am not trying to be disrespectful. These are issues I have brought up in my teacher's Sangha too.

You guys are "lucky" to have recordings of teachings and commentaries. LOTR doesn't really let us record anything; his logic being that if a person knows a teaching is being recorded they will not give due attention, because they will believe they can refer later to the recording.

Well, there are senior SMS students who are available to talk to, I have already done so with one of them, and they seem to be quite cool about giving advice with obstacles, etc. I have already received very good advice. I just do not like doing tantric practices that I cannot first do with a group/teacher that knows how to do them. I am not sure why but I feel like something is missing trying to attempt them on my own, webcast is a reasonable compromise.

I also feel like what ChNN showed me will affect anything I do no matter what, so to me there is no way to do something that is not affected by his teaching. That's literally impossible for me.

I have never been a DC only person, despite seeing ChNN as my root teacher. I still maintain a substantial connection to Sakya as well (in person relationships), and do one of the their practices. I was thinking the same with the Dudjom Tersar ngondro but it is too much of a commitment for something I am unsure about.

[Malcolm]

Some people might need more assistance. But in fact ChNN also made a vast library of all of his secondary practices, including both his own termas and other lineage practices such as Green Tara, with complete explanations.

Which is great, but it is not enough.

Yes, it is, by ChNN's own design. He himself stated, again and again that since he had recorded this and that teaching, he had no need to teach them again. All anyone needed was the lung for the practice in question, and access to the books and recordings.

Remember, we are talking about SECONDARY practices, like the short thun, medium thun, ganapuja, etc.

If people are unhappy with this, or feel they need more support, they can go and follow other teachers. Everyone is free.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Yes, ChNN was very big on people being truly responsible for their own practice, this is one of the most important things I learned from him.

[Grigoris]

Unfortunately, I cannot be responsible for my empowerment.

[Pero]

I don't understand the title. There is no continuation without a lineage. But by received empowerments and teachings you are already part of the lineage. Of course the lineage will die with the last generation if there is no one qualified in that generation after the originator has passed.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Unfortunately, I cannot be responsible for my empowerment.

No, but you are responsible for what you do with what you have received.

[Grigoris]

Unfortunately, I cannot be responsible for my empowerment.

No, but you are responsible for what you do with what you have received.

Sure, but I am not just talking about me, I am also talking about people who have/will come to the practices after the teacher's parinirvana, they are going to need empowerments.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Unfortunately, I cannot be responsible for my empowerment.

No, but you are responsible for what you do with what you have received.

Sure, but I am not just talking about me, I am also talking about people who have/will come to the practices after the teacher's parinirvana, they are going to need empowerments.

I don't understand how that's relevant to the overall discussion.

[Grigoris]

I don't understand the title. There is no continuation without a lineage. But by received empowerments and teachings you are already part of the lineage. Of course the lineage will die with the last generation if there is no one qualified in that generation after the originator has passed.

For example: LOTR has his "terma" (for want of a better term), but they do not belong in the Dudjom Tersar, although Rinpoche practices in that lineage.

They are new terma and they are practiced outside of a lineage. When Rinpoche passes into parinirvana the teachings may ot be incorporated into the Dudjom tersar and so...

[Grigoris]

I don't understand how that's relevant to the overall discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=30086#p475435

[Johnny Dangerous]

I don't understand how that's relevant to the overall discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=30086#p475435

I still don't get it, maybe it's some nuance i'm missing, but people can certainly practice from the terma of masters who have passed. I view "root guru" as the one who introduced me to the nature of mind, which colors any and all practices one can do. I don't feel like it necessarily means ones primary "technical teacher" in perpetuity, as certainly that relationship ends with the separation. But.. ymmv.

[Pero]

I don't understand the title. There is no continuation without a lineage. But by received empowerments and teachings you are already part of the lineage. Of course the lineage will die with the last generation if there is no one qualified in that generation after the originator has passed.

For example: LOTR has his "terma" (for want of a better term), but they do not belong in the Dudjom Tersar, although Rinpoche practices in that lineage.

They are new terma and they are practiced outside of a lineage. When Rinpoche passes into parinirvana the teachings may ot be incorporated into the Dudjom tersar and so...

I don't think that's how it works. A teaching can have its own lineage (teacher --> student --> becomes teacher --> student etc.), it doesn't have to be part of another lineage.

[Malcolm]

Unfortunately, I cannot be responsible for my empowerment.

Greg, we are talking about people who have already received transmission from ChNN. Not new people who never met him.

That is a different problem, one the community in the west will in time resolve. We already know that in China there is a Khenpo appointed to continue CHNN's lineage there.