New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

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Grigoris
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:30 pm
That is a different problem, one the community in the west will in time resolve. We already know that in China there is a Khenpo appointed to continue CHNN's lineage there.
:thumbsup:
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Grigoris
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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:54 pm

Pero wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:03 pm
Pero wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:56 pm
I don't understand the title. There is no continuation without a lineage. But by received empowerments and teachings you are already part of the lineage. Of course the lineage will die with the last generation if there is no one qualified in that generation after the originator has passed.
For example: LOTR has his "terma" (for want of a better term), but they do not belong in the Dudjom Tersar, although Rinpoche practices in that lineage.

They are new terma and they are practiced outside of a lineage. When Rinpoche passes into parinirvana the teachings may ot be incorporated into the Dudjom tersar and so...
I don't think that's how it works. A teaching can have its own lineage (teacher --> student --> becomes teacher --> student etc.), it doesn't have to be part of another lineage.
Sorry, I meant to say "outside of an established lineage", but it didn't fit in the title bar. :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by pemachophel » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:58 pm

Greg,

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you that a living Teacher with Whom one has a relationship in meat-space is extremely important, at least for many practitioners. (We've been over this issue before on this forum.) However, I'd like to Devil's advocate about terma after the Terton has died. Terma are revealed at a certain place, at a certain time, and to certain individuals. Who's to say that a terma practiced for a single generation (or even by a single person for that matter) hasn't done the job it was intended by Guru Rinpoche to do?

Also, in terms of LOTR's terma in particular, since you feel strongly about their continuity, maybe you're the lineage holder. You just need to ramp up your game a bit. :smile:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Grigoris
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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:18 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:58 pm
Also, in terms of LOTR's terma in particular, since you feel strongly about their continuity, maybe you're the lineage holder. You just need to ramp up your game a bit. :smile:
A bit???!!! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by pueraeternus » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:33 am

Ah. That explains the trip they made to China even within the first 49 days of his parinirvana.

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:30 pm
That is a different problem, one the community in the west will in time resolve. We already know that in China there is a Khenpo appointed to continue CHNN's lineage there.
:thumbsup:
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:39 am

i heard a similar insinuation from a lotsawa friend: "idc havn't produced any realized practitioner/instructor in the entire world". when this was said, publicly, i became aware that maybe people think that when a practitioner attains some specific or ultimate realization then will show up and go around giving teachings and alike.

that is very mistaken.

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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by MiphamFan » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:46 am

pueraeternus wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:33 am
Ah. That explains the trip they made to China even within the first 49 days of his parinirvana.

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:30 pm
That is a different problem, one the community in the west will in time resolve. We already know that in China there is a Khenpo appointed to continue CHNN's lineage there.
:thumbsup:
I don't think so.

This Khenpo is actually in Taiwan. I tried to enquire about more information about his background and his teachings and I am not sure if he really is teaching ChNN's teachings. I don't want to say more in public. If you want more info you can PM me, but anyway, this does not really concern Western practitioners.

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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:10 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:46 am
pueraeternus wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:33 am
Ah. That explains the trip they made to China even within the first 49 days of his parinirvana.

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:42 pm
:thumbsup:
I don't think so.

This Khenpo is actually in Taiwan. I tried to enquire about more information about his background and his teachings and I am not sure if he really is teaching ChNN's teachings. I don't want to say more in public. If you want more info you can PM me, but anyway, this does not really concern Western practitioners.


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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by Adamantine » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 pm

Interesting that this Khenpo dresses in lay clothes. Generally the title Khenpo is reserved for gelongs: those holding the full set of monastic vows. Nowadays many Khenpos who have achieved the title while monks, who later give back their vows (or break them?) maintain the title due to people’s habit of calling them by it. However even the “Khenpo” Zangpo Rinpoche who heads many of the Dudjom tersar centers in Nepal once he took a Chinese khandro, changed his name in official documents and announcements accordingly to Lama Zangpo, or so I heard. Anyone know the story with this Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo?
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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by pueraeternus » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:47 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:46 am
pueraeternus wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:33 am
Ah. That explains the trip they made to China even within the first 49 days of his parinirvana.

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:42 pm
:thumbsup:
I don't think so.

This Khenpo is actually in Taiwan. I tried to enquire about more information about his background and his teachings and I am not sure if he really is teaching ChNN's teachings. I don't want to say more in public. If you want more info you can PM me, but anyway, this does not really concern Western practitioners.
Well, I am based in the west now, so my concern would be how DC here can continue without someone able to give DI.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by pemachophel » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:02 pm

It's my understanding that, in Nyingma, when someone has completed all the coursework and passed the exams for the Khenpo "degree" but they are a layman, not a gelong, they are called Loppon or Acharya (like Loppon Orgyen Tenzin and Acharya Lama Dawa Chodrak).
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:44 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:39 am
i heard a similar insinuation from a lotsawa friend: "idc havn't produced any realized practitioner/instructor in the entire world".
This person must have amazing clairvoyance to be so confident of their opinion; however, what it actually shows is that they know nothing at all about Dzogchen teachings.

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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:44 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:39 am
i heard a similar insinuation from a lotsawa friend: "idc havn't produced any realized practitioner/instructor in the entire world".
This person must have amazing clairvoyance to be so confident of their opinion; however, what it actually shows is that they know nothing at all about Dzogchen teachings.
i agree.

also i'm afraid that he is influenced by his lama. I gathered precautions and also indirect evidence that he secretly used to criticize ChNN.

it is sad that when one examines and scratches a bit and then find such things.

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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Tata1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:38 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:34 pm


And this is very excellent.

However, JD's root guru is the late ChNN. There is no reason for him to practice other termas when he can practice the fresh termas of his master from whom he has already received the full and complete transmission. If he wants to practice guru yoga, he can practice the guru yoga of the medium thun. It is no different at all from the guru yoga of Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingthig, etc., in meaning. And there is the ngondro practice in the Longsal teachings, mentioned above. I am just reminding him of this.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 pm


You don't really need this. All you need is the medium thun, since you are a DC guy. And if you want to practice a Ngondro, well, there is the Ati Lamgi Ngondro.
How do I even obtain that Ngondro? I don't remember if I received the lung for it either.
CHNN gave this lung frequently. Just look up retreats you gave attended on line, and track down the lung list. I am 100 precent certain you will discover you have received this transmission. Anyway, there is nothing in any Ngondro that is missing from Medium Thun. You really do not need anything beyond the short, medium, and long thun practices. The only reason to do some other Ngondro is if you meet some Lama who insists that you must, and you are actually inspired to practice under their direction. But in the mean time, since this is not the case, you do not need this transmission at all.
Are thun practices considered part of Chnn termas?

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Re: empowerment for Dudjom Tersar Ngondro

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:30 pm

Tata1 wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:38 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm




How do I even obtain that Ngondro? I don't remember if I received the lung for it either.
CHNN gave this lung frequently. Just look up retreats you gave attended on line, and track down the lung list. I am 100 precent certain you will discover you have received this transmission. Anyway, there is nothing in any Ngondro that is missing from Medium Thun. You really do not need anything beyond the short, medium, and long thun practices. The only reason to do some other Ngondro is if you meet some Lama who insists that you must, and you are actually inspired to practice under their direction. But in the mean time, since this is not the case, you do not need this transmission at all.
Are thun practices considered part of Chnn termas?
Depends on what you understand by "terma."

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Re: New terma and their continuation outside of a lineage.

Post by Tata1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:06 pm

I mean if they are teachings that he recieved during pure vision or if its something that he composed or something in between

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