Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

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bhava
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Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by bhava » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:07 am

What are common points and differences in the way mind essence is introduced (how the recognition is further developed) in tibetan buddhism and in advaita vedanta system? I mean looking at satsangs of Mooji (mooji.org), teachings of Ramana Maharshi, Papaji plus the way this tradition is appreciated by some western dharma teachers (Elio Guarisco, Adriano Clemente), maybe one can learn and take inspiration from it even being a practitioner of tibetan buddhism.

Pero
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Pero » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:46 am

One can get inspired by anything. By inspiration I mean inspiration to practice. Coming to some sort of understanding can be a different matter entirely. Funnily I listened Mooji for a bit yesterday for the first time and I think what he is about has nothing to do with how mind essence is introduced in TB...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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PeterC
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by PeterC » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:32 pm

For most people, this is more likely to result in confusion and misunderstandings than in inspiration.

Malcolm
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:59 pm

bhava wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:07 am
What are common points and differences in the way mind essence is introduced (how the recognition is further developed) in tibetan buddhism and in advaita vedanta system?
Advaita and Buddhadharma have nothing in common at all, apart from a shared theory that suffering is a result of afflictions. Their respective solutions to this problem are like the difference between night and day, however.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:59 pm
bhava wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:07 am
What are common points and differences in the way mind essence is introduced (how the recognition is further developed) in tibetan buddhism and in advaita vedanta system?
Advaita and Buddhadharma have nothing in common at all, apart from a shared theory that suffering is a result of afflictions. Their respective solutions to this problem are like the difference between night and day, however.
:good:

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Wayfarer
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:02 am

The two traditions seem far more alike from outside than from within.

From the outside perspective, i.e. as a Westerner, both of them share the same sacramental language, Sanskrit, and have also influenced each other by defining their tenets in opposition to each other. According to one of the sources quoted in the Wikipedia entry on Shankara:
Shankara and his followers borrowed much of their dialectic form of criticism from the Buddhists. His Brahman was very much like the sunya of Nagarjuna [...] The debts of Shankara to the self-luminosity of the Vijnanavada Buddhism can hardly be overestimated. There seems to be much truth in the accusations against Shankara by Vijnana Bhiksu and others that he was a hidden Buddhist himself. I am led to think that Shankara's philosophy is largely a compound of Vijnanavada and Sunyavada Buddhism with the Upanisad notion of the permanence of self superadded.
S.N. Dasgupta (1997). History of Indian Philosophy, Volume 1. p. 494.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Vaktar
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Vaktar » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:59 pm
bhava wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:07 am
What are common points and differences in the way mind essence is introduced (how the recognition is further developed) in tibetan buddhism and in advaita vedanta system?
Advaita and Buddhadharma have nothing in common at all, apart from a shared theory that suffering is a result of afflictions. Their respective solutions to this problem are like the difference between night and day, however.
Without Buddhism -- especially without the influence of Nagarjuna and and at least some of the Buddhist logicians, Advaita would never have developed as much as it did. Granted it's just some wierd mold samples in Buddhism's petri dish. But without agar, nothing much grows there. Vedanta is an opportunistic growth in the rich context of Indian Buddhist culture.

So you can't dismiss their commonality out of hand so glibly, without ignoring historical context.

Donny
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Donny » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:05 pm

This short article states an interesting position on Ramana Maharshi by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche:

https://www.chronicleproject.com/a-con ... h-century/

Of course this is completely anecdotal and only represents the standpoint - or the recollection thereof - of Trungpa Rinpoche. Plus it might be argued if Ramana Maharshi could really be quoted as a Teacher of Advaita Vedanta, since he was representing no lineage etc.

:anjali:

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Rick
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Rick » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:01 pm

Donny wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:05 pm
https://www.chronicleproject.com/a-con ... h-century/
Steve Roth: “What about Krishnamurti?”

VCTR: “Arhat.” (long pause) … “Big baby.”

That's hilarious! :tongue: :namaste: :tongue:

Rick (recovering Catholic and Krishnamurtian)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Malcolm
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Vaktar wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:59 pm
bhava wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:07 am
What are common points and differences in the way mind essence is introduced (how the recognition is further developed) in tibetan buddhism and in advaita vedanta system?
Advaita and Buddhadharma have nothing in common at all, apart from a shared theory that suffering is a result of afflictions. Their respective solutions to this problem are like the difference between night and day, however.
Without Buddhism -- especially without the influence of Nagarjuna and and at least some of the Buddhist logicians, Advaita would never have developed as much as it did. Granted it's just some wierd mold samples in Buddhism's petri dish. But without agar, nothing much grows there. Vedanta is an opportunistic growth in the rich context of Indian Buddhist culture.

So you can't dismiss their commonality out of hand so glibly, without ignoring historical context.
I pretty well aware of the historical context. Shankara went to great lengths to prophylactically reject the ideas that his POV was derived from Mahāyāna, as anyone who has actually read Shankara will know.

The main claim for Buddhist influence on Shankara comes from the fact that his paramaguru was a guy named Gaudapāda, the fourth chapter of whose Agamaśastra seems to borrow heavily from Madhyamaka and Yogacāra arguments, somewhat indiscriminately, to refute Samkhya and Vaiśesika scholars, and to propose ajativāda. However, given that Shankara does in fact go to great lengths to forestall the criticism of being a crypto-Buddhist, this should perhaps lead us to conclude that he wasn't a crypto-Buddhist,, and that his opponents such as Vijñāna Bhikṣu, Ramanuja, and so on, were all just a bit lazy in their thinking.

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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:01 am

Off-topic discussion moved here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=30308
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

fckw
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by fckw » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:24 pm

I once read this meditation instruction for Advaita Vedanta, it was propagated by a very respectable student of Ramana Maharishi:
Direct the awareness towards the totality of itself and exclude all phenomena.
Now, if you have received Dzogchen instructions you will immediately understand that such an approach cannot be compatible with the Dzogchen view.

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Grigoris
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:43 am

fckw wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:24 pm
I once read this meditation instruction for Advaita Vedanta, it was propagated by a very respectable student of Ramana Maharishi:
Direct the awareness towards the totality of itself and exclude all phenomena.
Now, if you have received Dzogchen instructions you will immediately understand that such an approach cannot be compatible with the Dzogchen view.
Observing one's mind without distraction by "external phenomena" (the senses) is a technique taught in Mahamudra.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:43 am
fckw wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:24 pm
I once read this meditation instruction for Advaita Vedanta, it was propagated by a very respectable student of Ramana Maharishi:
Direct the awareness towards the totality of itself and exclude all phenomena.
Now, if you have received Dzogchen instructions you will immediately understand that such an approach cannot be compatible with the Dzogchen view.
Observing one's mind without distraction by "external phenomena" (the senses) is a technique taught in Mahamudra.
You’re being a bit too liberal with your interpretation of Ramana Maharshi’s advice. He means “exclude all phenomena” in a literal sense, not simply as a temporary means to avoid distraction.

tatpurusa
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by tatpurusa » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Donny wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:05 pm
This short article states an interesting position on Ramana Maharshi by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche:

https://www.chronicleproject.com/a-con ... h-century/

Of course this is completely anecdotal and only represents the standpoint - or the recollection thereof - of Trungpa Rinpoche. Plus it might be argued if Ramana Maharshi could really be quoted as a Teacher of Advaita Vedanta, since he was representing no lineage etc.

:anjali:
as I wrote here some 5 years ago viewtopic.php?f=63&t=15022&hilit=tatpur ... 40#p206108
I know for certain of a good friend of mine who was personally advised by HH Lungtok Tenpai Nyima (Menri Trizin) to practise the methods of Ramana Maharshi

tp.

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Grigoris
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm
You’re being a bit too liberal with your interpretation of Ramana Maharshi’s advice. He means “exclude all phenomena” in a literal sense, not simply as a temporary means to avoid distraction.
Are you sure you are not being too literal?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by krodha » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm
You’re being a bit too liberal with your interpretation of Ramana Maharshi’s advice. He means “exclude all phenomena” in a literal sense, not simply as a temporary means to avoid distraction.
Are you sure you are not being too literal?
If only the purusa exists, then no, I’m not being too literal.

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:19 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm
You’re being a bit too liberal with your interpretation of Ramana Maharshi’s advice. He means “exclude all phenomena” in a literal sense, not simply as a temporary means to avoid distraction.
Are you sure you are not being too literal?
It is true that lots of Buddhist traditions, both within and outside Vajrayana, use the term "state without thoughts" (or an equivalent) to refer to a state that is in no way literally without thoughts. One wonders how RM's words are interpreted by Advaita teachers.
tatpurusa wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm
I know for certain of a good friend of mine who was personally advised by HH Lungtok Tenpai Nyima (Menri Trizin) to practise the methods of Ramana Maharshi
Them Bonpo heretics! ;-)
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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PeterC
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by PeterC » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:08 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:19 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm
krodha wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm
You’re being a bit too liberal with your interpretation of Ramana Maharshi’s advice. He means “exclude all phenomena” in a literal sense, not simply as a temporary means to avoid distraction.
Are you sure you are not being too literal?
It is true that lots of Buddhist traditions, both within and outside Vajrayana, use the term "state without thoughts" (or an equivalent) to refer to a state that is in no way literally without thoughts. One wonders how RM's words are interpreted by Advaita teachers.
Indeed. We can't say with confidence what Ramana Maharshi's practice was because he never acknowledged students or appointed successors. The people who teach his methods didn't receive much direct instruction from him, unless you consider darshan to be instruction, but here in Team Buddhadharma we don't: and what the more prominent neo-Advaitan teachers teach as practice is an interpretation of what they thought RM was teaching them. So who knows...

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anjali
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by anjali » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:24 am

While not everyone's cup of tea, this video on RM's teachings may be worth watching for those interested in such things: Jnani. There is a discussion of mind essence from the Advaita perspective. David Godman's comments are the highlight of the video, in my opinion.
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