Unrestricted Chenrezig Sadhana

[Johnny Dangerous]

Empowerment is not optional, nor is Greg or I an authority on someone elses practice, people should be making connections with teachers for definitive advice though, not DW users, that is the point.

Its great that that is your experience Greg, my own experience was getting advice like this on DW (presented as if its definitive) only to find that the approach of my Sakya teachers was very differen from what was being presented as "just the way it is" on DW...Ngondro would be one example where teachers and schools differ considerably. So while I understand wanting to be cautious, I also think its more important that people establish contact with definitive sources *in order to have confidence in what they are doing* than it is that they accept DW users authority, ymmv.

[ThreeVows]

It's probably better to err on the side of not conditioning people one way or the other, including presenting one's own school and experiences as the gold standard approach to Vajrayana, and point them to resources. Yet, people consistently do it anyway on DW.

Well, I did point them in the direction of a resource...

Vajrayana practices require wang, lung and tri... It is just the way things roll. Even many practices which may derive from Sutra (and are thus "open") still require these prerequisites. Migyur Dorje's sadhana of Amitabha (a terma) is one that comes to mind.

Unfortunately, conditioning people to just pick up practices and run with them, may cause a lot more harm (or at the very least wasted time) than good.

From my experience one needs permission from one's teacher to even transmit "commonly available" mantra.

Connections formed by transmitting mantra may be much deeper and longstanding than one may wish. It is not something to be flippant about.

Khenpo Yeshe Phuntsok very clearly says that this particular practice which is based on a terma is somewhat special in that it does not require any empowerment. He writes this explicitly in the introduction.

https://www.amazon.com/Vajrasattva-Medi ... ajrasattva

[Grigoris]

...I also think its more important that people establish contact with definitive sources *in order to have confidence in what they are doing* than it is that they accept DW users authority, ymmv...

This goes without saying, which is why (I repeat) I pointed them in the direction of a resource.

Khenpo Yeshe Phuntsok very clearly says that this particular practice which is based on a terma is somewhat special in that it does not require any empowerment. He writes this explicitly in the introduction.

That is not what my teachers told me.

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

[amanitamusc]

...I also think its more important that people establish contact with definitive sources *in order to have confidence in what they are doing* than it is that they accept DW users authority, ymmv...

This goes without saying, which is why (I repeat) I pointed them in the direction of a resource.

Khenpo Yeshe Phuntsok very clearly says that this particular practice which is based on a terma is somewhat special in that it does not require any empowerment. He writes this explicitly in the introduction.

That is not what my teachers told me.

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

Many people have many teachers and i would think they would follow the practices as directed by
each teacher and not mix advise from teachers with other teachers practices.
Otherwise ones practice can be very confusing.

[ThreeVows]

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

I certainly would not advise you or anyone else to engage in such a practice against wisdom, but I just shared it as a sort of counterpoint. He says, and I quote,

“This text was a revelation, or mind terma, of my root Guru, the great khenpo and dharma king Jigme Phuntshog Rinpoche. Unlike most treasure texts, this one can be practiced even without an empowerment.”

FWIW.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

I certainly would not advise you or anyone else to engage in such a practice against wisdom, but I just shared it as a sort of counterpoint. He says, and I quote,

“This text was a revelation, or mind terma, of my root Guru, the great khenpo and dharma king Jigme Phuntshog Rinpoche. Unlike most treasure texts, this one can be practiced even without an empowerment.”

FWIW.

As long as no one is saying "go practice anything you want off the internet" (and clearly, no one is), then the difference of experiences and opinions is to be expected, and is just fine.

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Thanks, Everyone

Apologies the question caused so much division, which I wasn't expecting and certainly not intended.

Anyway, I was just trying to be of benefit to a couple of people.

I think if you have a qualified answer from a lineage you are practising within then that is definitive with no need to recourse here for further information.

Or maybe an answer that you feel is qualified and definitive in and of itself.

I think if there was an answer to the question that was it.

Much Respect to everybody who gave their time and input.

Have a wonderful New Year!!!

[Johnny Dangerous]

I have looked through the archives with this.

Have one question, however.

Which Chenrezig Sadhanas are Unrestricted and can be practised by non-Tantric Initiates?

I've had it arise a couple of times, people who are interested but not ready or inclined to take Tantric initiation yet.

I know I can recommend Mani Mantra, White Tara Mantra and the Sutra of the 8 Fears. Aside from recommending Pure Land Teaching, I'm going to leave it at that.

Happy Holidays!!!!

If one is already practicing a Chenrezig sadhana in a group setting, then even conservatively the teachers I have asked will say to practice the mani mantra. Some have said it was perfectly fine (not only that, they encouraged it) to do the sadhana itself, but that one should get an initiation when it's possible.

I imagine this is a totally different thing that trying to just pick up a practice from a text though, In some of these cases you are practicing with a Lama and/or with sernior students, who while they may not be able to provide empowerment, do often provide a basic explanation and/or experience of the practice that doesn't exist if one is simply encountering the sadhana in text form... for instance simply finding a sadhana in a book or online.

So I get why people are cautious, but I also don't think it's a great thing to discourage people from practices that say they are unrestricted are based on one's own patterns and experiences.

I believe there is also a Karma Chagme practice (I don't remember which book) that purports to not require empowerment.

I would for sure point someone in such a situation to Bokar's rinpoches book.

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

I have looked through the archives with this.

Have one question, however.

Which Chenrezig Sadhanas are Unrestricted and can be practised by non-Tantric Initiates?

I've had it arise a couple of times, people who are interested but not ready or inclined to take Tantric initiation yet.

I know I can recommend Mani Mantra, White Tara Mantra and the Sutra of the 8 Fears. Aside from recommending Pure Land Teaching, I'm going to leave it at that.

Happy Holidays!!!!

If one is already practicing a Chenrezig sadhana in a group setting, then even conservatively the teachers I have asked will say to practice the mani mantra. Some have said it was perfectly fine (not only that, they encouraged it) to do the sadhana itself, but that one should get an initiation when it's possible.

I imagine this is a totally different thing that trying to just pick up a practice from a text though, In some of these cases you are practicing with a Lama and/or with sernior students, who while they may not be able to provide empowerment, do often provide a basic explanation and/or experience of the practice that doesn't exist if one is simply encountering the sadhana in text form... for instance simply finding a sadhana in a book or online.

So I get why people are cautious, but I also don't think it's a great thing to discourage people from practices that say they are unrestricted are based on one's own patterns and experiences.

I believe there is also a Karma Chagme practice (I don't remember which book) that purports to not require empowerment.

I would for sure point someone in such a situation to Bokar's rinpoches book.

It's difficult.

One one hand you have the Esoteric/Secrecy aspect.

The other you have the genuine desire to benefit.

I'm very respectful of both.

I've seen people recommend here more open Chenrezig Sadhanas and just wanted to be absolutely sure about passing anything on if I felt somebody could make real benefit from it. Meaning it is fine it is definitely unrestricted.

I think the consensus is that is not the case unless you receive personal/qualified guidance, or permission to do that. Which I don't.

So I won't.

Due to the nature of Samaya, I'm happy to be cautious and recommend Garchen Rinpoche or someone similar if such a person is ready for that.

Thanks

[Grigoris]

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

I certainly would not advise you or anyone else to engage in such a practice against wisdom, but I just shared it as a sort of counterpoint. He says, and I quote,

“This text was a revelation, or mind terma, of my root Guru, the great khenpo and dharma king Jigme Phuntshog Rinpoche. Unlike most treasure texts, this one can be practiced even without an empowerment.”

FWIW.

Dude, no disrespect but... Khenpo can say whatever he wishes, I though, will go by my teacher's instructions.

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

I certainly would not advise you or anyone else to engage in such a practice against wisdom, but I just shared it as a sort of counterpoint. He says, and I quote,

“This text was a revelation, or mind terma, of my root Guru, the great khenpo and dharma king Jigme Phuntshog Rinpoche. Unlike most treasure texts, this one can be practiced even without an empowerment.”

FWIW.

Dude, no disrespect but... Khenpo can say whatever he wishes, I though, will go by my teacher's instructions.

Seeker12 is just highlighting there are many approaches. Depending on different variations of Vajrayana.

It's like 84,000 different roads to the same destination more or less.

That's why there were different answers to the same question.

[Pero]

Which is why it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution and even better to always follow what YOUR teachers say.

I certainly would not advise you or anyone else to engage in such a practice against wisdom, but I just shared it as a sort of counterpoint. He says, and I quote,

“This text was a revelation, or mind terma, of my root Guru, the great khenpo and dharma king Jigme Phuntshog Rinpoche. Unlike most treasure texts, this one can be practiced even without an empowerment.”

FWIW.

Dude, no disrespect but... Khenpo can say whatever he wishes, I though, will go by my teacher's instructions.

You got Jigme Phuntsok's Vajrasattva and were told that an empowerment is required for it?

[Pero]

...

I believe there is also a Karma Chagme practice (I don't remember which book) that purports to not require empowerment.

Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. While it says that in the text, you're still supposed to get the text from a teacher though... Not just read and do.

[Johnny Dangerous]

...

I believe there is also a Karma Chagme practice (I don't remember which book) that purports to not require empowerment.

Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. While it says that in the text, you're still supposed to get the text from a teacher though... Not just read and do.

Fair enough, though I don't recall that in the text itself, you mean simply due to it being a restricted text?

[Pero]

...

I believe there is also a Karma Chagme practice (I don't remember which book) that purports to not require empowerment.

Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. While it says that in the text, you're still supposed to get the text from a teacher though... Not just read and do.

Fair enough, though I don't recall that in the text itself, you mean simply due to it being a restricted text?

Yeah that is not in the text but is IMO implicit. I don't think it was Karma Chagme's intent for people to just pick up the text somewhere and start practicing. Like how are you supposed to do guru yoga if you don't have a guru etc.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. While it says that in the text, you're still supposed to get the text from a teacher though... Not just read and do.

Fair enough, though I don't recall that in the text itself, you mean simply due to it being a restricted text?

Yeah that is not in the text but is IMO implicit. I don't think it was Karma Chagme's intent for people to just pick up the text somewhere and start practicing. Like how are you supposed to do guru yoga if you don't have a guru etc.

Maybe not, but the 'restricted' status of the book is also unclear, so for instance if some interested and earnest practitioner gets the book from their Dharma center library or something, is there some rule saying they can't practice it? Does it state somewhere the book is strictly for those with Tantric samaya? that seems odd for an unrestricted Chenrezig practice in particular. I tend to take instructions from a given teacher regarding what they say about the practice they are giving, and I remember the wording on the Chenrezig practice (maybe i'm wrong, it's been a while) being pretty unequivocal.

That's not to say it should just be picked up by anyone of course, but seriously, I don't see a lot of official protocol either way with a book like that (providing one has no formal teacher to ask of course), though again I might not be remembering.

[Pero]

This has nothing to do with a book being restricted or not. Reading something is different from practicing it. The book explicitly doesn't say it's strictly for those with tantric samaya but it would be pretty strange to think it's for anyone when the text explains how to keep the samaya. Why would it do that if you (not you personally) don't even have one?

[Johnny Dangerous]

This has nothing to do with a book being restricted or not. Reading something is different from practicing it. The book explicitly doesn't say it's strictly for those with tantric samaya but it would be pretty strange to think it's for anyone when the text explains how to keep the samaya. Why would it do that if you (not you personally) don't even have one?

I don't know but it seems no less logical than assuming that the book is written exclusively for those who already have had Tantric empowerments, or that the unrestricted Chenrezig practice in the book is exclusively for said people. in fact, it strikes me as more odd to offer people who already have Tantric empowerments an unrestricted Chenrezig practice in the first place. I remember the actual statement as connoting something like "reading this book confers the samaya of this practice", which of course i'm sure lots of would take issue with. However, I don't remember the exact wording, and I don't have my copy nearby or available.

Basically, when you say that the restriction is "implicit", it doesn't seem like there is a lot of evidence for that, beyond the fact that some people have a more conservative view of these things than others, usually due to their own teachers, etc.

[Pero]

For sure it says nothing like that in the short root text. I had in my mind the 8 songs. However in the more extensive text there is something like that generally one should recieve the empowerment but for this practice of Avalokiteshvara one can also do it without the empowerment. This is probably in Naked Awareness book, don't have it at hand this moment. I will have to take a look if it says anything about practicing just from reading.

It is not a conservative view that one can practice tantric teachings without a teacher. It's a pretty normal one.

I didn't mean to say that it is exclusively for people who have previous samaya and whatnot, one can also get that by receiving this text.

In any case I'll take a look tomorrow.

[Johnny Dangerous]

For sure it says nothing like that in the short root text. I had in my mind the 8 songs. However in the more extensive text there is something like that generally one should recieve the empowerment but for this practice of Avalokiteshvara one can also do it without the empowerment. This is probably in Naked Awareness book, don't have it at hand this moment. I will have to take a look if it says anything about practicing just from reading.

It is not a conservative view that one can practice tantric teachings without a teacher. It's a pretty normal one.

I didn't mean to say that it is exclusively for people who have previous samaya and whatnot, one can also get that by receiving this text.

In any case I'll take a look tomorrow.

I think it's fair to say that It's a De Facto conservative view to tell people that they cannot or should not specifically practice any Chenrezig practice without an empowerment. Pretty much by definition, given them most lineages allow public Chenrezig practices, allow wide participation in them, and encourage things like chanting of Manis sans any kind of initiation. There's certainly a lot of moving parts and grey areas of course, and naturally the safest approach with those is probably to default to a trusted authority.