Garab Dorje

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
mechashivaz
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:50 pm

Garab Dorje

Post by mechashivaz » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:20 pm

Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Garab Dorje

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:19 pm

mechashivaz wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:20 pm
Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!
Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.

Seeker12
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Garab Dorje

Post by Seeker12 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:19 pm
mechashivaz wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:20 pm
Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!
Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.
Both the 3rd Karmapa and 5th Dalai Lama are known as being Dzogchen adepts. Does that mean that these schools accept Garab Dorje or is that more particular to individual Karmapas/Dalai Lamas/etc?
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra Shastra

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Garab Dorje

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:44 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:19 pm
mechashivaz wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:20 pm
Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!
Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.
Both the 3rd Karmapa and 5th Dalai Lama are known as being Dzogchen adepts. Does that mean that these schools accept Garab Dorje or is that more particular to individual Karmapas/Dalai Lamas/etc?
The third Karmapa and the Great Fifth would, can't speak for the rest of the Kagyus or Gelugpas, or Sakyapas for that matter.

Seeker12
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Garab Dorje

Post by Seeker12 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:44 pm
Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:19 pm


Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.
Both the 3rd Karmapa and 5th Dalai Lama are known as being Dzogchen adepts. Does that mean that these schools accept Garab Dorje or is that more particular to individual Karmapas/Dalai Lamas/etc?
The third Karmapa and the Great Fifth would, can't speak for the rest of the Kagyus or Gelugpas, or Sakyapas for that matter.
This is a tangential question, but I'm interested in your perspective if appropriate - it's sometimes said that various individuals are emanations of so-and-so. For example, I believe that it's said that the 2nd Karmapa Karma Pakshi was an emanation of Guru Rinpoche, and the 15th Karmapa was a terton which implies that he was a disciple of Guru Rinpoche when he was fully manifest in Tibet, etc.

It's also said, then, that each subsequent Karmapa (for example) is basically the continuation of the mind-stream of the previous one.

So does that make all of the Karmapas emanations of Guru Rinpoche?

I can't think of distinct examples otherwise right now, but similar things would be like saying that such-and-such is an emanation of Ananda, or of Vimalamitra, etc, and then the subsequent incarnation of the Tulku line isn't necessarily discussed in the same way.

Can it be that in a particular Tulku line (assuming it's legit), one incarnation is an emanation of so-and-so and the next isn't?

Sorry if this isn't clear, or if it's not particularly relevant. Just came to mind.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra Shastra

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Garab Dorje

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:10 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:06 pm
So does that make all of the Karmapas emanations of Guru Rinpoche?
That's the idea.
I can't think of distinct examples otherwise right now, but similar things would be like saying that such-and-such is an emanation of Ananda, or of Vimalamitra, etc, and then the subsequent incarnation of the Tulku line isn't necessarily discussed in the same way.
Vimalamitra, in the Nyinthig literatures, promises to return to Tibet every one hundred years to correct deviations in Dzogchen teachings.
Can it be that in a particular Tulku line (assuming it's legit), one incarnation is an emanation of so-and-so and the next isn't?
The criteria by which Tibetans identify this one and that one as an emanation of this one or that one seem to be pretty opaque and lacking a real system. Since this system of recognitions is really not mentioned in any tantra, etc., I consider it culture, not Dharma, and pretty much ignore the entire tulku system as an anachronism that wont function well in the West, and will constantly present problems for Tibetans as much as it solves issues for them.

PeterC
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Garab Dorje

Post by PeterC » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:43 am

Seeker12 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:19 pm
mechashivaz wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:20 pm
Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!
Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.
Both the 3rd Karmapa and 5th Dalai Lama are known as being Dzogchen adepts. Does that mean that these schools accept Garab Dorje or is that more particular to individual Karmapas/Dalai Lamas/etc?
The DLs are a line that plays a major role in the Gelugpa school but they traditionally have also been Dzogchen practitioners: however that is not a part of the orthodox Gelugpa curriculum. Some Gelugpas will also tell you that the DL is not the 'head' of the Gelugpa school, that would be the Ganden Tripa. The Kagyu curriculum (i.e. the set of teachings and practices transmitted by Milarepa and Gampopa) doesn't contain Dzogchen. But I would guess that a majority of high Kagyu masters have received and practiced Dzogchen teachings at some point. So as always - it's complicated.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], heart, little rock and 63 guests