DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:47 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:30 pm
Problem is that one can mistake and consider ordinary assholes to be supramundane assholes, lol.
Bingo. And I personally cannot offer a foolproof answer to that problem.

A buddy of mine suggests using the 8 worldly dharmas as a predictor. If you can predict a lama’s future actions based on winning(+) or losing(-) when it comes to (1)money, (2)sex, (3)power, or (4)prestige then stay away. (2x4=8)

I guess the traditional take is caveat emptor for 12 years.
Yes, more or less 12 years of examination, then one can be sure to take the leap.

it is good what your buddy suggests, since the problems aren't the experiences but the attachments. ime, at the least sign of attachment i walk my way.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 pm

Yes, more or less 12 years of examination, then one can be sure to take the leap.
A lot of people don’t want there to be any “leap” ever. I think that’s the mindset DKR is addressing.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:38 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 pm
Yes, more or less 12 years of examination, then one can be sure to take the leap.
A lot of people don’t want there to be any “leap” ever. I think that’s the mindset DKR is addressing.
Interesting.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Nemo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:37 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:10 pm
Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:45 pm
I think an interesting question is can an asshole introduce you to the nature of mind?

The answer is yes. I find this both troubling and intriguing.
i agree. But they apparently looks like an asshole. Look at the great Siddha Chogyal Trungpa histories and his asshole behaviour for example, or the mithyc and uninhibited Siddha/Mahasiddha Drukpa Kunley and his dunken sex machine stories, or the Ra Lotsawa histories of destruction...

For some, this records are annoying... for me they where until i understood the meaning of "going beyhond" and an important difference between the Mahayana and Vajrayana.

I agree, the answer is yes. But one must examine further because apparently one could see this beings as assholes without reason, but there is certainly a reason, all of them where teachers and attained high realization. Problem is that one can mistake and consider ordinary assholes to be supramundane assholes, lol.
Not everyone gets the luxury of having a teacher who keeps perfect Sila in the conventional sense, but if keeping Sila in the conventional sense was all that was needed the world would not need Buddhism.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:42 am

Not everyone gets the luxury of having a teacher who keeps perfect Sila in the conventional sense, but if keeping Sila in the conventional sense was all that was needed the world would not need Buddhism.
:good:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:54 am

Nemo wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:37 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:10 pm
Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:45 pm
I think an interesting question is can an asshole introduce you to the nature of mind?

The answer is yes. I find this both troubling and intriguing.
i agree. But they apparently looks like an asshole. Look at the great Siddha Chogyal Trungpa histories and his asshole behaviour for example, or the mithyc and uninhibited Siddha/Mahasiddha Drukpa Kunley and his dunken sex machine stories, or the Ra Lotsawa histories of destruction...

For some, this records are annoying... for me they where until i understood the meaning of "going beyhond" and an important difference between the Mahayana and Vajrayana.

I agree, the answer is yes. But one must examine further because apparently one could see this beings as assholes without reason, but there is certainly a reason, all of them where teachers and attained high realization. Problem is that one can mistake and consider ordinary assholes to be supramundane assholes, lol.
Not everyone gets the luxury of having a teacher who keeps perfect Sila in the conventional sense, but if keeping Sila in the conventional sense was all that was needed the world would not need Buddhism.
Oh, it is the most desireable, but yes yes morality itself can become an obstacle.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:54 am

Oh, it is the most desireable, but yes yes morality itself can become an obstacle.
Dangerous line of thinking. The point at which one might enter into unconventional behavior is when one is a very, very advanced practitioner.

As the man said: vast as the sky / fine as grains of flour.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 am

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:54 am

Oh, it is the most desireable, but yes yes morality itself can become an obstacle.
Dangerous line of thinking. The point at which one might enter into unconventional behavior is when one is a very, very advanced practitioner.

As the man said: vast as the sky / fine as grains of flour.
What do you consider very advanced?

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:35 am

Oh, it is the most desireable, but yes yes morality itself can become an obstacle.
Nope. That’s a misunderstanding.

The idea is that a Highly realized mind, one that can see the karma of beings, can see ways to benefit that do not comply with conventional expectations. When this happens it is still excellent pure morality.

It is my understanding that’s why DKR rails against sjws insisting that Vajrayana comply with political correctness. The whole point is that enlightened activity is beyond conventional minds ability to understand. It doesn’t matter which society, or which conventions. Even the most well intentioned compassionate conventions. Enlightened activity’s ability to benefit is not limited to whatever we expect.

However this idea is also the justification for scumbags to use so they can get away with b.s. It’s as good as any manipulative cult’s idea to take advantage of suckers this is why I do not recommend anybody get into Vajrayana. General Mahayana is good enough. .

It’s tricky.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:54 am

Oh, it is the most desireable, but yes yes morality itself can become an obstacle.
Dangerous line of thinking. The point at which one might enter into unconventional behavior is when one is a very, very advanced practitioner.

As the man said: vast as the sky / fine as grains of flour.
What do you consider very advanced?
Well, when Guru Rinpoche said those words, he was talking about himself. So probably nobody on this website

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Miroku » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:17 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am


Dangerous line of thinking. The point at which one might enter into unconventional behavior is when one is a very, very advanced practitioner.

As the man said: vast as the sky / fine as grains of flour.
What do you consider very advanced?
Well, when Guru Rinpoche said those words, he was talking about himself. So probably nobody on this website
Yes, but many teachers put it as an example how practitioners should act.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:25 pm

Yes, but many teachers put it as an example how practitioners should act.
By “practitioners” do you mean lamas, rinpoches, or students?
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by _R_ » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:26 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 pm
Yes, more or less 12 years of examination, then one can be sure to take the leap.
A lot of people don’t want there to be any “leap” ever. I think that’s the mindset DKR is addressing.
That's why we have stuff like Guru yoga. Not everyone sadly has superior faculties, like Kukkuripa had.

For me finding out my root guru was relatively easy. I asked one Lama to do a mirror divination and that was about it. It almost felt like I found my arm. Or something like that.

Back then it all made perfect sense to me, but I have come to realise not lot of people uses methods like that? At least not in the West

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:42 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:17 pm
PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 am


What do you consider very advanced?
Well, when Guru Rinpoche said those words, he was talking about himself. So probably nobody on this website
Yes, but many teachers put it as an example how practitioners should act.
That’s my point. *Even* GR upholds this standard. So it’s completely pointless speculating about whether you or someone you know might be past that stage.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by _R_ » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:01 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:42 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:17 pm
PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm


Well, when Guru Rinpoche said those words, he was talking about himself. So probably nobody on this website
Yes, but many teachers put it as an example how practitioners should act.
That’s my point. *Even* GR upholds this standard. So it’s completely pointless speculating about whether you or someone you know might be past that stage.
Guru Rinpoche? By our standards he was a mass murderer. Nyak Vajrakumara killed his own brother. etc

Like the third Jamgön Kongtrül explained to Trungpa's students, "You shouldn't imitate or judge the behavior of your teacher, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, unless you can imitate his mind."

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Miroku » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:18 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:42 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:17 pm
PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm


Well, when Guru Rinpoche said those words, he was talking about himself. So probably nobody on this website
Yes, but many teachers put it as an example how practitioners should act.
That’s my point. *Even* GR upholds this standard. So it’s completely pointless speculating about whether you or someone you know might be past that stage.
Oh Sorry I misunderstood. :oops: Yeah definetly without pure morals there is no real guru.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:54 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:54 am

Oh, it is the most desireable, but yes yes morality itself can become an obstacle.
Dangerous line of thinking. The point at which one might enter into unconventional behavior is when one is a very, very advanced practitioner.

As the man said: vast as the sky / fine as grains of flour.
that point lies where doubts have expired. if one have doubts one should practice conventional morality.

it can be dangerous only if one has no certainty and goes around just pretending. that's what an asshole does.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:08 pm

Off topic discussion about CTR moved here.

:focus:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:46 pm

that point lies where doubts have expired. if one have doubts one should practice conventional morality.

it can be dangerous only if one has no certainty and goes around just pretending. that's what an asshole does.
I think it takes more than lack of doubt. One has to be able to see the karma involved (wisdom) and to have the ability to actually help (skillful means). That might require something more than unconventional behavior. You might have to make it rain or perform some other miracle.

So yeah. If you can do miracles then you probably have what is needed to do virtuous actions in an unconventional way.
Last edited by smcj on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:18 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:46 pm
that point lies where doubts have expired. if one have doubts one should practice conventional morality.

it can be dangerous only if one has no certainty and goes around just pretending. that's what an asshole does.
I think it takes more than lack of doubt. One has to be able to see the karma involved (wisdom) and to have the ability to actually help (skillful means). That might require something more than unconventional behavior. You might have to make it rain or perform some other miracle.
i'm talking on doubt on true nature, not intelectual/philosophical doubts. i mean, in ati yoga terms.

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