DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

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smcj
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:33 pm

i'm talking on doubt on true nature, not intelectual/philosophical doubts. i mean, in ati yoga terms.
I don’t know if that would give you the appropriate abilities. You might need some completion stage practices like the 6 Yogas.

But this is a case where I truly do not know what I’m talking about.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Cinnabar
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Cinnabar » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:37 pm

I have the following puzzlement.....

As vajrayana practitioners we are to train in seeing the guru as a buddha. But we're also to train in seeing our selves as buddhas. That is training in vajra pride. And we're also to train in seeing all our dharma siblings, all beings really, as buddhas. That is training in pure perception. Fundamentally we're to train in seeing all phenomena-- all beings, places, things-- as pure.

There are vows and samayas for all of these. We confess and purify lapses of all of these.

All of these are potential problems. One can be harmed by any of them. A misapplication of any of these trainings can be problematic. Been there. Done that.

But it only seems to be the training of seeing the guru as a buddha that gives people problems. I see plenty of cautionary anti-guru rhetoric. Especially after some scandals.

But I never see any cautionary rhetoric about divine pride or pure perception. And there's plenty there to go off one's rails with.

What's up with that?

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Josef
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:04 am

Cinnabar wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:37 pm
I have the following puzzlement.....

As vajrayana practitioners we are to train in seeing the guru as a buddha. But we're also to train in seeing our selves as buddhas. That is training in vajra pride. And we're also to train in seeing all our dharma siblings, all beings really, as buddhas. That is training in pure perception. Fundamentally we're to train in seeing all phenomena-- all beings, places, things-- as pure.

There are vows and samayas for all of these. We confess and purify lapses of all of these.

All of these are potential problems. One can be harmed by any of them. A misapplication of any of these trainings can be problematic. Been there. Done that.

But it only seems to be the training of seeing the guru as a buddha that gives people problems. I see plenty of cautionary anti-guru rhetoric. Especially after some scandals.

But I never see any cautionary rhetoric about divine pride or pure perception. And there's plenty there to go off one's rails with.

What's up with that?
Since the danger of being harmed is so much greater in the Guru/disciple relationship (danger to the guru as well). Any samaya breach involving the student can be purified, whether it is a lapse of pure vision related to the guru, vajra siblings, or the greater mandala but for gurus who break their samaya the negativity is far greater. So great that the Rigpa Rangshar deems such breaches as beyond purification. So in that sense a guru who breaks their root samayas is bound to that karma, while students have the opportunity to purify it and move on.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Josef
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:18 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:46 pm
that point lies where doubts have expired. if one have doubts one should practice conventional morality.

it can be dangerous only if one has no certainty and goes around just pretending. that's what an asshole does.
I think it takes more than lack of doubt. One has to be able to see the karma involved (wisdom) and to have the ability to actually help (skillful means). That might require something more than unconventional behavior. You might have to make it rain or perform some other miracle.
i'm talking on doubt on true nature, not intelectual/philosophical doubts. i mean, in ati yoga terms.
In Ati yoga, even after one has resolved all doubts one should still practice conventional moral behavior. There is not moment when you get to throw out conventional conduct because you no longer have doubts about rigpa. You may not be limited by the confines of convention but you still act according to the needs of beings. The perfection of ordinary conduct is a profound aspect of the Ati yoga path, at least according to Longchenpa and his heirs.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

smcj
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:28 am

What's up with that?
Seeing your guru as Buddha is the initial training. Everything after that is seen as guru/Buddha.

Through empowerment the guru gives you access to to the Yidam. From your perspective they are in a sense fungible. So to act, speak, or think negatively towards him/her is karmically tantamount to negative action against your Yidam. That’s a big deal.

Or at least such is my current understanding of the theory. It is subject to change without updating this post.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Cinnabar
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Cinnabar » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:38 am

My comment was aimed at critics of the vajrayana.

It is strange to me that reliance of the guru is considered dangerous and problematic and worthy of lengthy deconstruction and reassembly...

... while other aspects of the vajrayana get a pass. Not even a mention.

Seems it all stands together or falls together.

The good thing-- I don't need to understand.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:18 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:46 pm

I think it takes more than lack of doubt. One has to be able to see the karma involved (wisdom) and to have the ability to actually help (skillful means). That might require something more than unconventional behavior. You might have to make it rain or perform some other miracle.
i'm talking on doubt on true nature, not intelectual/philosophical doubts. i mean, in ati yoga terms.
In Ati yoga, even after one has resolved all doubts one should still practice conventional moral behavior. There is not moment when you get to throw out conventional conduct because you no longer have doubts about rigpa. You may not be limited by the confines of convention but you still act according to the needs of beings. The perfection of ordinary conduct is a profound aspect of the Ati yoga path, at least according to Longchenpa and his heirs.
at that point morality is a good skillful mean, nothing else.

ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.

a particular morality can't define the nature of individuals.

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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:59 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am
ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.
When you are realised you are altruism incarnate -- and what you want is, thank goodness, no longer an issue for you. As long as you still really want anything, what you ought to seek to embody is clearly the perfectly altruistic, asymmetrical moral conduct. Or so they teach, the realised masters.

An afterthought: Mahayana radical altruism is just about as far away from anything conventional in this world as possible. The do-what-thou-wilt trip, on the other hand, seems pretty much the gospel of today, does it not?
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:59 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am
ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.
When you are realised you are altruism incarnate -- and what you want is, thank goodness, no longer an issue for you. As long as you still really want anything, what you ought to seek to embody is clearly the perfectly altruistic, asymmetrical moral conduct. Or so they teach, the realised masters.

An afterthought: Mahayana radical altruism is just about as far away from anything conventional in this world as possible. The do-what-thou-wilt trip, on the other hand, seems pretty much the gospel of today, does it not?
haha yeah, a gospel without promises and fear.

and without those great voices singing :P

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:35 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:59 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am
ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.
When you are realised you are altruism incarnate -- and what you want is, thank goodness, no longer an issue for you. As long as you still really want anything, what you ought to seek to embody is clearly the perfectly altruistic, asymmetrical moral conduct. Or so they teach, the realised masters.

An afterthought: Mahayana radical altruism is just about as far away from anything conventional in this world as possible. The do-what-thou-wilt trip, on the other hand, seems pretty much the gospel of today, does it not?
haha yeah, a gospel without promises and fear.

and without those great voices singing :P
hmm imo, about the first, at that point altruism is like a "by-product" of agitation, not a particular effort even if there one can perform a particular effort and all of them turns to be benefitial, even if one do the asshole papper in the play, really one doesn't want anything in particular. just remain. T

The "things should be like this or that" argument is of no importance, and are the kind of things to be chop-chop.

i know that the approaches are different from path to path, but this is what more or less what i understood considering what my teacher told us.

different is if one is to take mahayana litteraly.

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Josef
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:26 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:18 pm


i'm talking on doubt on true nature, not intelectual/philosophical doubts. i mean, in ati yoga terms.
In Ati yoga, even after one has resolved all doubts one should still practice conventional moral behavior. There is not moment when you get to throw out conventional conduct because you no longer have doubts about rigpa. You may not be limited by the confines of convention but you still act according to the needs of beings. The perfection of ordinary conduct is a profound aspect of the Ati yoga path, at least according to Longchenpa and his heirs.
at that point morality is a good skillful mean, nothing else.

ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.

a particular morality can't define the nature of individuals.
Rinpoche never said we should dismiss morality and conventional conduct. What we release is attachments to paths, along with what treehuggingoctopus said, we manifest the activities of bodhicitta directly and effortlessly when we are truly realized.
Why do you think Rinpoche himself was always so respectful of everyone around him? He certainly didnt abandon conventional morality and ordinary conduct. Nor did Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Khenpo Ngakchung, Chatral Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, the list could go on all day. Realized beings dont all of the sudden stop being kind, polite, and generous, in fact it becomes even more natural for them to do so, they just dont cling to any conventions or concepts.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

smcj
Posts: 6381
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:48 pm

Rinpoche never said we should dismiss morality and conventional conduct. What we release is attachments to paths, along with what treehuggingoctopus said, we manifest the activities of bodhicitta directly and effortlessly when we are truly realized.
Why do you think Rinpoche himself was always so respectful of everyone around him? He certainly didnt abandon conventional morality and ordinary conduct. Nor did Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Khenpo Ngakchung, Chatral Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, the list could go on all day. Realized beings dont all of the sudden stop being kind, polite, and generous, in fact it becomes even more natural for them to do so, they just dont cling to any conventions or concepts.
:good:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:26 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 am


In Ati yoga, even after one has resolved all doubts one should still practice conventional moral behavior. There is not moment when you get to throw out conventional conduct because you no longer have doubts about rigpa. You may not be limited by the confines of convention but you still act according to the needs of beings. The perfection of ordinary conduct is a profound aspect of the Ati yoga path, at least according to Longchenpa and his heirs.
at that point morality is a good skillful mean, nothing else.

ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.

a particular morality can't define the nature of individuals.
Rinpoche never said we should dismiss morality and conventional conduct. What we release is attachments to paths, along with what treehuggingoctopus said, we manifest the activities of bodhicitta directly and effortlessly when we are truly realized.
Why do you think Rinpoche himself was always so respectful of everyone around him? He certainly didnt abandon conventional morality and ordinary conduct. Nor did Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Khenpo Ngakchung, Chatral Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, the list could go on all day. Realized beings dont all of the sudden stop being kind, polite, and generous, in fact it becomes even more natural for them to do so, they just dont cling to any conventions or concepts.
I disagree with that understanding, but i respect that. ChNN did so because the circumstance said so, because he lived and teached to live normal life and to not run away.

One can't decide what to release and what not, isn't it?

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Josef
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:15 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:10 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:26 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:34 am


at that point morality is a good skillful mean, nothing else.

ChNN said many times that when you get realized you can trow everything (the teachings he was talking about) away if you want, in the mean time one needs the teaching and certainly conventional morality.

a particular morality can't define the nature of individuals.
Rinpoche never said we should dismiss morality and conventional conduct. What we release is attachments to paths, along with what treehuggingoctopus said, we manifest the activities of bodhicitta directly and effortlessly when we are truly realized.
Why do you think Rinpoche himself was always so respectful of everyone around him? He certainly didnt abandon conventional morality and ordinary conduct. Nor did Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Khenpo Ngakchung, Chatral Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, the list could go on all day. Realized beings dont all of the sudden stop being kind, polite, and generous, in fact it becomes even more natural for them to do so, they just dont cling to any conventions or concepts.
I disagree with that understanding, but i respect that. ChNN did so because the circumstance said so, because he lived and teached to live normal life and to not run away.

One can't decide what to release and what not, isn't it?
No, everything is released from clinging. You dont just start acting out when you are liberated.
ChNN and all of those other lineage masters behaved respectfully toward beings because they were realized and lived in the human dimension. Longchenpa is quite clear on the conduct of Ati and its power in the Tsik Don Dzod. This isnt simply an "understanding" this is how the conduct of those who realize rigpa is outlined in the teachings.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:27 pm

Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:15 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:10 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:26 pm


Rinpoche never said we should dismiss morality and conventional conduct. What we release is attachments to paths, along with what treehuggingoctopus said, we manifest the activities of bodhicitta directly and effortlessly when we are truly realized.
Why do you think Rinpoche himself was always so respectful of everyone around him? He certainly didnt abandon conventional morality and ordinary conduct. Nor did Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Khenpo Ngakchung, Chatral Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, the list could go on all day. Realized beings dont all of the sudden stop being kind, polite, and generous, in fact it becomes even more natural for them to do so, they just dont cling to any conventions or concepts.
I disagree with that understanding, but i respect that. ChNN did so because the circumstance said so, because he lived and teached to live normal life and to not run away.

One can't decide what to release and what not, isn't it?
No, everything is released from clinging. You dont just start acting out when you are liberated.
ChNN and all of those other lineage masters behaved respectfully toward beings because they were realized and lived in the human dimension. Longchenpa is quite clear on the conduct of Ati and its power in the Tsik Don Dzod. This isnt simply an "understanding" this is how the conduct of those who realize rigpa is outlined in the teachings.
Some teachers you mention where monks that lived in monasteries and monks that came to the west.

I have a list of Mahasiddhas, Siddhas, etc. that where not monks at the time of their liberation and where not precisely moral as you mention they should be.

This is the point. There is no rule.

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Josef
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:32 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:27 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:15 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:10 pm


I disagree with that understanding, but i respect that. ChNN did so because the circumstance said so, because he lived and teached to live normal life and to not run away.

One can't decide what to release and what not, isn't it?
No, everything is released from clinging. You dont just start acting out when you are liberated.
ChNN and all of those other lineage masters behaved respectfully toward beings because they were realized and lived in the human dimension. Longchenpa is quite clear on the conduct of Ati and its power in the Tsik Don Dzod. This isnt simply an "understanding" this is how the conduct of those who realize rigpa is outlined in the teachings.
Some teachers you mention where monks that lived in monasteries and monks that came to the west.

I have a list of Mahasiddhas, Siddhas, etc. that where not monks at the time of their liberation and where not precisely moral as you mention they should be.

This is the point. There is no rule.
Most of those Mahasiddhas are in the transmission of annutarayoga tantra. You asked specifically about Ati yoga.
And yes, there is a rule. That rule is governed by bodhicitta. How that bodhicitta manifests is without limitations. When we’re on the path it’s relative, when we’re realized it is an expression of the essence, nature, and energy. Clinging to stages and paths is released but that doesn’t mean you release all notions of ordinary conduct.
Again, this is very clear in the teachings.
Why do you think the ideal of the hidden yogi is held in such high esteem? And I only mentioned two monks in that list.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:22 pm

Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:32 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:27 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:15 pm

No, everything is released from clinging. You dont just start acting out when you are liberated.
ChNN and all of those other lineage masters behaved respectfully toward beings because they were realized and lived in the human dimension. Longchenpa is quite clear on the conduct of Ati and its power in the Tsik Don Dzod. This isnt simply an "understanding" this is how the conduct of those who realize rigpa is outlined in the teachings.
Some teachers you mention where monks that lived in monasteries and monks that came to the west.

I have a list of Mahasiddhas, Siddhas, etc. that where not monks at the time of their liberation and where not precisely moral as you mention they should be.

This is the point. There is no rule.
Most of those Mahasiddhas are in the transmission of annutarayoga tantra. You asked specifically about Ati yoga.
And yes, there is a rule. That rule is governed by bodhicitta. How that bodhicitta manifests is without limitations. When we’re on the path it’s relative, when we’re realized it is an expression of the essence, nature, and energy. Clinging to stages and paths is released but that doesn’t mean you release all notions of ordinary conduct.
Again, this is very clear in the teachings.
Why do you think the ideal of the hidden yogi is held in such high esteem? And I only mentioned two monks in that list.
I agree, some where monks. The point is that they all -those you mention and those i mention- realized the same knowledge as the Buddha. That's all that matters.

i'm afraid you are applying a Mahayana criteria to a Vajrayana way. The fact is that there is no such limit of morality in reality, it only acquires meaning in the mean time, in the path.

we have examples like, Guru Padmasambhava. Do you consider conventionaly moral for a Buddha to conquer a country?

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Josef
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:22 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:32 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:27 pm


Some teachers you mention where monks that lived in monasteries and monks that came to the west.

I have a list of Mahasiddhas, Siddhas, etc. that where not monks at the time of their liberation and where not precisely moral as you mention they should be.

This is the point. There is no rule.
Most of those Mahasiddhas are in the transmission of annutarayoga tantra. You asked specifically about Ati yoga.
And yes, there is a rule. That rule is governed by bodhicitta. How that bodhicitta manifests is without limitations. When we’re on the path it’s relative, when we’re realized it is an expression of the essence, nature, and energy. Clinging to stages and paths is released but that doesn’t mean you release all notions of ordinary conduct.
Again, this is very clear in the teachings.
Why do you think the ideal of the hidden yogi is held in such high esteem? And I only mentioned two monks in that list.


i'm afraid you are applying a Mahayana criteria to a Vajrayana way. The fact is that there is no such limit of morality in reality, it only acquires meaning in the mean time, in the path.

we have examples like, Guru Padmasambhava. Do you consider conventionaly moral for a Buddha to conquer a country?
I am definitely not applying a Mahayana criteria, Im applying the Ati yoga criteria outlined by Longchenpa and others specific to the path of Ati yoga, you simply have yet to encounter these teachings. I have given you references repeatedly, you just dont seem to like that it challenges your cursory reading of common tropes around mahasiddhas. You also had the opportunity to observe a Mahasiddha as an example of this yet seem to reject it in favor of a romanticized idea of what conduct for realized beings looks like.
Padmasambhava didnt "conquer" a country. He used upaya to tame obstructions in order to benefit beings.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:49 pm

Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:22 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:32 pm


Most of those Mahasiddhas are in the transmission of annutarayoga tantra. You asked specifically about Ati yoga.
And yes, there is a rule. That rule is governed by bodhicitta. How that bodhicitta manifests is without limitations. When we’re on the path it’s relative, when we’re realized it is an expression of the essence, nature, and energy. Clinging to stages and paths is released but that doesn’t mean you release all notions of ordinary conduct.
Again, this is very clear in the teachings.
Why do you think the ideal of the hidden yogi is held in such high esteem? And I only mentioned two monks in that list.


i'm afraid you are applying a Mahayana criteria to a Vajrayana way. The fact is that there is no such limit of morality in reality, it only acquires meaning in the mean time, in the path.

we have examples like, Guru Padmasambhava. Do you consider conventionaly moral for a Buddha to conquer a country?
I am definitely not applying a Mahayana criteria, Im applying the Ati yoga criteria outlined by Longchenpa and others specific to the path of Ati yoga, you simply have yet to encounter these teachings. I have given you references repeatedly, you just dont seem to like that it challenges your cursory reading of common tropes around mahasiddhas. You also had the opportunity to observe a Mahasiddha as an example of this yet seem to reject it in favor of a romanticized idea of what conduct for realized beings looks like.
Padmasambhava didnt "conquer" a country. He used upaya to tame obstructions in order to benefit beings.
I'm sorry, my Guru told me that in the nature of mind there is no limits, and that limitations are cause of suffering and not cause of realization. And i'm talking of skillful means, not of nihilistic behaviour.

Im sure Longchenpa had many students, perhaps some of them needed to hear/read specific things.

One last question, what you think Guru Padasambhava did in Tibet?

smcj
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Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:24 pm

...in the nature of mind there is no limits,
Defiled emotionality are such limitations.
...and that limitations are cause of suffering and not cause of realization.
Yes. Acting on one’s defiled emotions are a cause of suffering and not a cause of realization.
Last edited by smcj on Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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