Narak Kong Shak Questions

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Motova
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Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Motova » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm

Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.

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Grigoris
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:13 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.
Strange question. Why, do you believe, that it would not be accepted?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Motova
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Motova » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:13 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.
Strange question. Why, do you believe, that it would not be accepted?
It seems to contradict The Treasury of Knowledge: Book Five: Buddhist Ethics and Perfect Conduct: Ascertaining the Three Vows about the time limit to repair samaya. Both books say one has three years, but Narak Kong Shak may repair samaya regardless of time.

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billy hudson
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by billy hudson » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:28 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.
"It is known as one of the most powerful and important methods or practices of confession within the Nyingma tradition, . . . "

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _Kong_Shak

Motova
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Motova » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:01 am

billy hudson wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:28 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.
"It is known as one of the most powerful and important methods or practices of confession within the Nyingma tradition, . . . "

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _Kong_Shak
Does all of Nyingma believe it can repair samaya regardless of time?

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Grigoris
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:24 pm

Motova wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:01 am
billy hudson wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:28 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.
"It is known as one of the most powerful and important methods or practices of confession within the Nyingma tradition, . . . "

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _Kong_Shak
Does all of Nyingma believe it can repair samaya regardless of time?
Out of interest: What does your teacher say?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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_R_
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by _R_ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:26 am

Motova wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:01 am
billy hudson wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:28 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:21 pm
Do all Nyingma accept the validity Narak Kong Shak?

Thank you.
"It is known as one of the most powerful and important methods or practices of confession within the Nyingma tradition, . . . "

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _Kong_Shak
Does all of Nyingma believe it can repair samaya regardless of time?
I think narak kongshak kinda goes beyond time? What do you think?

Sādhaka
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Sādhaka » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 pm

Na rak dong sprugs seems to be from Guru Chöwang and Rigdzin Gödem.

I think that it’s safe to say that all Nyingmapas accept its validity.

Also the three year thing—as I’ve mentioned before in similar threads—is provisional (i.e. expedient/skillful means to keep us from slacking for too long).

Not to say that our commitments don’t degenerate more and more the longer we take to repair them....
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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LolCat
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by LolCat » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:30 am

What does it mean to say that the samaya breach can't be repaired? A post in another thread claimed that gurus who break samaya can't repair it and have to go to vajra hell. Is vajra hell where you go to and purify your samaya breach if you don't repair samaya in this lifetime/3 years?

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Miroku
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Miroku » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:12 am

LolCat wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:30 am
What does it mean to say that the samaya breach can't be repaired? A post in another thread claimed that gurus who break samaya can't repair it and have to go to vajra hell. Is vajra hell where you go to and purify your samaya breach if you don't repair samaya in this lifetime/3 years?
Basically yeah. Especially if it is a root samaya that has been broken. And well purify. Yeah you go there and you "purify" but lets bo honest daily vajrasattva is way better option of purification than vajra hell.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

LolCat
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by LolCat » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:10 pm

Miroku wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:12 am
LolCat wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:30 am
What does it mean to say that the samaya breach can't be repaired? A post in another thread claimed that gurus who break samaya can't repair it and have to go to vajra hell. Is vajra hell where you go to and purify your samaya breach if you don't repair samaya in this lifetime/3 years?
Basically yeah. Especially if it is a root samaya that has been broken. And well purify. Yeah you go there and you "purify" but lets bo honest daily vajrasattva is way better option of purification than vajra hell.
Thank you, that makes sense.

Motova
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Motova » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:29 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:13 pm


Also the three year thing—as I’ve mentioned before in similar threads—is provisional (i.e. expedient/skillful means to keep us from slacking for too long).

This is what I have been thinking lately.

I might be wrong, but it is my understanding that there is nothing that cannot be purified in Mahayana; it does not feel right that that would change in Vajrayana.

Sādhaka
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:43 am

Shedra Wiki wrote:According to Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche[1]:

The practice of Narak Kong Shak is known as one of the most powerful and important methods or practices of confession.

[…] There are thee categories of breakages:

Galwa, a breakage not confessed within a period of up to twenty-four hours.
Depa, a breakage not confessed within three months.
Ralwa, a breakage not confessed within three years.

Once three years have elapsed, according to some tantras, a breakage is ‘irrevocable’.

The Narak Dongtrul Tantra, or Narak Kong Shak, has special features:

[First], it enables us to purify any kind of breakage, regardless of how much time has elapsed.

[Second], all the different categories of breakages may be purified not only by the one who committed the action, but also by somebody practising on his or her behalf.

And like I’ve said before, according to ChNNR there is a Tantra (Rinpoche didn’t give the name of it, but I’m sure it exists if he said that it does) that says that you have as many years to purify as the age that you were when you first received Initation.

Or it could have been half as many years as the age that you were. Although I’m pretty sure that it is as many years as the age that you were. Either way, for most of us that is going to much more than three years.
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Cinnabar
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Cinnabar » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:21 pm

So, back to Narak Kong Shak...

... I'm reading the translation and guide by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo on Lotsawa House.

It's pretty clear how this could stand on itself. I'm presuming one can put it into a tsok where normally puts in additional confession and atonement prayers?

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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:02 pm

Narag Tongtrug is from Mahayoga and Anuyoga yes? Not even directly related to the Semde cycle?

If that’s the case, then if you’ve received Transmissions from a authentic Lineage Holder ‘higher’ than Anuyoga, then you can just do the said ‘higher’ practices—‘higher’ yet ‘simpler’/more suited to a ‘simple Yogi’ if you get my drift—to ‘purificate’ (reference to another recent thread) because they automatically include the very essence of Anuyoga (and therefore Narak Tontrug & Konshak as well) and everything else ‘below’ yes?

I mean of course this Anuyoga practice is marvelous, and you should do it if you get the chance.

I’m just implying that if you have little time & resources to do all the complicated rituals & visualizations; perhaps you don’t have to beat yourself up over it. Just do the ‘higher’ than Anuyoga practices you’ve received, and with positive intention and in good faith and move on.

And make sure to do them on auspicious days (btw, Autumn Equinox is in about ten hours) if it helps you feel that the millions-fold multiplication of merits on these days is a ‘idiot-proof’ way of ensuring successful purification; yet still try to have confidence in your ability to develop your capacity regardless.

Like I posted recently, I’m not sure if this is even appropriate for discussion in an open forum....

Thoughts?
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Sādhaka
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:08 pm

Does anyone know if there’s a Bönpo equivalent of Narag Tongtrug (most likely from Bön’s Mother Tantra)?

Some people may see Bön as a copy of Gelug and Nyingma, and in some ways there are such elements; but overall I completely disagree with this idea.
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by heart » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:37 am

Cinnabar wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:21 pm
So, back to Narak Kong Shak...

... I'm reading the translation and guide by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo on Lotsawa House.

It's pretty clear how this could stand on itself. I'm presuming one can put it into a tsok where normally puts in additional confession and atonement prayers?
Yes, you do it before the tsog just after you finished the deity part.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by heart » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:53 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:02 pm
Narag Tongtrug is from Mahayoga and Anuyoga yes? Not even directly related to the Semde cycle?

If that’s the case, then if you’ve received Transmissions from a authentic Lineage Holder ‘higher’ than Anuyoga, then you can just do the said ‘higher’ practices—‘higher’ yet ‘simpler’/more suited to a ‘simple Yogi’ if you get my drift—to ‘purificate’ (reference to another recent thread) because they automatically include the very essence of Anuyoga (and therefore Narak Tontrug & Konshak as well) and everything else ‘below’ yes?

I mean of course this Anuyoga practice is marvelous, and you should do it if you get the chance.

I’m just implying that if you have little time & resources to do all the complicated rituals & visualizations; perhaps you don’t have to beat yourself up over it. Just do the ‘higher’ than Anuyoga practices you’ve received, and with positive intention and in good faith and move on.

And make sure to do them on auspicious days (btw, Autumn Equinox is in about ten hours) if it helps you feel that the millions-fold multiplication of merits on these days is a ‘idiot-proof’ way of ensuring successful purification; yet still try to have confidence in your ability to develop your capacity regardless.

Like I posted recently, I’m not sure if this is even appropriate for discussion in an open forum....

Thoughts?
Well, mending and purification is a big important part of Nyingma practice. This means that everyone do it no matter what level of practice you are applying. In fact it is perfectly fine to do Narak Kong Shak while resting in the natural state, it is actually perfect. Narak Kong Shak is often a part of long mending and purification practices that also contain amazingly profound texts ment to mend and purify our application of Dzogchen. So please understand that in the Nyingma tradition Dzogchen is always included and there are (except in the west) no practitioners that separate Dzogchen from the other inner Tantras in the way you hint at above.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:37 pm

Miroku wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:12 am
LolCat wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:30 am
What does it mean to say that the samaya breach can't be repaired? A post in another thread claimed that gurus who break samaya can't repair it and have to go to vajra hell. Is vajra hell where you go to and purify your samaya breach if you don't repair samaya in this lifetime/3 years?
Basically yeah. Especially if it is a root samaya that has been broken. And well purify. Yeah you go there and you "purify" but lets bo honest daily vajrasattva is way better option of purification than vajra hell.
DKR mentioned once that Vajra Hell is a state of mind where one conceptualizes every single thing and experience. Something like that, i don't remember the precise word.

That was pretty interesting, and pretty alarming too. Just mentioned it because of that.

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