Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Nemo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:05 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Nemo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:21 pm
P.S. If one of these sketchy people showed you Dzogchen View or Mahamudra you are soooo screwed. You have my sympathy. You cannot escape. :popcorn:
Please elaborate.
You will have a difficult and tumultuous relationship. I suggest standing your ground on ethical violations though. Just tell them a dog can't jump like a lion. If you aren't projecting and are being sincere it will be fine. The everything the Guru does is holy game is cowardly.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:43 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:59 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:27 pm
In a hedonistic societies like ours, an ethical ascetic is the one displaying "crazy wisdom".
:good:

Cannot be stressed enough.

Although, I cant agree more with saying that we should see our gurus with pure vision, however on the other hand... following a bad teacher is like drinking a poison. Such simple thing as pure ethics seem to be quite understated in the west. Here it is all about meditation. Which is cool. But we need the rest too. Maybe people like to believe their gurus are "crazy wisdom" gurus and not sharlatans because it makes the ego feel nice. Who else but a special being could be a student of someone who does not need such useless thing as pure ethics.

If you wanna see real crazy go to see Chetsang Rinpoche who not only went through cultural revolution but took part in it as a highschool student and helped his classmates and after that lived in a shack toiling from dusk till dawn. Thats crazy. If you want real crazy go see Garchen Rinpoche whose love and compassion are beyond anything I could ever imagine. And all developed in prison. If you want real crazy go see some ordinary lama who will tell you to do ngöndro first or to start with basics in general and will put a fight when it comes to dana. Thats real crazy.
:good:
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by tobes » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:06 am

It seems to me that whatever moral critique one could apply to CTR - and there are surely many - calling him a charlatan is totally unjustified. He was what he was, and made zero attempt to disguise it/hide it/pretend to be anything else; moreover, from what I can see, that notion was very central to the kind of Dharma that he taught.

Very different, in my book, from people such as Sogyal who has exemplified the meaning of being two-faced. It is the sense of deception that is so damaging. i.e. presenting as noble and realised, whilst living like a an aggressive hedonist.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:54 am

tobes wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:06 am
It seems to me that whatever moral critique one could apply to CTR - and there are surely many - calling him a charlatan is totally unjustified. He was what he was, and made zero attempt to disguise it/hide it/pretend to be anything else; moreover, from what I can see, that notion was very central to the kind of Dharma that he taught.

Very different, in my book, from people such as Sogyal who has exemplified the meaning of being two-faced. It is the sense of deception that is so damaging. i.e. presenting as noble and realised, whilst living like a an aggressive hedonist.
:good: Tobes, an important distinction IMO.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Vaktar » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:42 am

Adamantine wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:05 am
The following is an open letter from Lady Diana Mukpo to the Shambhala community:
I suspect some of the commentators on this thread were in diapers -- or not even born -- when Trungpa Rinpoche passed away in 1987. You couldn't remember what Dharmadhatu (later rebranded Shambhala) centers were like, what sort of teachers and teachings were given. Well I was there, on occasion. I was just a college kid but Trungpa's students invited me into their cocktail parties. Later I was surreptitiously ushered into the VIP tent by the cremation pyre at Karme Choling, where I could see Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Trulshik Rinpoche, Shamar Rinpoche and the other Kagyu regents, H.H. Sakya Trizin and man other high lamas, tulkus and yogis, as well as the upper ranks of the Vajradhatu leadership, each performing their own rituals around the cremation. In Halifax that year I sat through many days of empowerments and teachings by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dzongsar Khyentse. Diana Mukpo, the Thomas Rich family and everyone who was ever anyone in Trungpa's life, all were there. I stayed as a guest in the group home of the lady who was head Shambhala Training then. On her wall was the calligraphed mantra of Green Tara, signed "Love, Chogyie". Many 1.5 litre bottles of sake were consumed every night after the Dzogchen teachings.

A few things I can definitely say for these folks, as I knew them, but probably woudn't say for a great many contributors in these forums. They had class. They had social skills. They knew how to keep it light. They had a profound sense of devotion. They didn't pretend to know about people or matters that they didn't know anything about. And they -- the old students of Trungpa -- could all carry on intelligent, searching conversations about the teachings, up to and including Dzogchen. That was entirely due to the kindness of Chogyam Trungpa.

I was just a straggler, dragged in on the robe-hem of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. But even so, I was lucky, probably luckier than most of you. The comments in this thread show just a bunch of ignorant boors Western Buddhists have become. You sound like the rabble that elected the current U.S. president. It's a sad, and I'm afraid, largely irremediable situation because some of your attitudes seem almost too vile to change. The times are bad. Blame and judgetarianism will not rectify the situation. Trying to learn from past mistakes is a good start. But the way some of you are talking, you never made any mistakes and therefore, don't need to learn from the mistakes that anyone else made either. At least Diana Mukpo is willing to admit that she's been at fault.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by billy hudson » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:23 am

Vaktar wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:42 am
Adamantine wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:05 am
The following is an open letter from Lady Diana Mukpo to the Shambhala community:
I suspect some of the commentators on this thread were in diapers -- or not even born -- when Trungpa Rinpoche passed away in 1987. You couldn't remember what Dharmadhatu (later rebranded Shambhala) centers were like, what sort of teachers and teachings were given. Well I was there, on occasion. I was just a college kid but Trungpa's students invited me into their cocktail parties. Later I was surreptitiously ushered into the VIP tent by the cremation pyre at Karme Choling, where I could see Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Trulshik Rinpoche, Shamar Rinpoche and the other Kagyu regents, H.H. Sakya Trizin and man other high lamas, tulkus and yogis, as well as the upper ranks of the Vajradhatu leadership, each performing their own rituals around the cremation. In Halifax that year I sat through many days of empowerments and teachings by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dzongsar Khyentse. Diana Mukpo, the Thomas Rich family and everyone who was ever anyone in Trungpa's life, all were there. I stayed as a guest in the group home of the lady who was head Shambhala Training then. On her wall was the calligraphed mantra of Green Tara, signed "Love, Chogyie". Many 1.5 litre bottles of sake were consumed every night after the Dzogchen teachings.

A few things I can definitely say for these folks, as I knew them, but probably woudn't say for a great many contributors in these forums. They had class. They had social skills. They knew how to keep it light. They had a profound sense of devotion. They didn't pretend to know about people or matters that they didn't know anything about. And they -- the old students of Trungpa -- could all carry on intelligent, searching conversations about the teachings, up to and including Dzogchen. That was entirely due to the kindness of Chogyam Trungpa.

I was just a straggler, dragged in on the robe-hem of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. But even so, I was lucky, probably luckier than most of you. The comments in this thread show just a bunch of ignorant boors Western Buddhists have become. You sound like the rabble that elected the current U.S. president. It's a sad, and I'm afraid, largely irremediable situation because some of your attitudes seem almost too vile to change. The times are bad. Blame and judgetarianism will not rectify the situation. Trying to learn from past mistakes is a good start. But the way some of you are talking, you never made any mistakes and therefore, don't need to learn from the mistakes that anyone else made either. At least Diana Mukpo is willing to admit that she's been at fault.
Finally ... sigh. Thank you so much.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by tobes » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:11 am

Thanks Vaktar, for chiming in.

What you say seems quite obvious to me, as a student of the history of Dharma in the west. Whichever way you look at it, CTR and his genuine students have played an immense role in opening the door of Vajrayana in the west. There is room for criticism, perhaps, if it is grounded in true insight. But there seems less and less of that every passing year, and more and more sheer bloody minded moralising. If one is defending Shila, that is quite plainly not the way to accomplish it.

:anjali:

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am

Is it my imagination or are posts vanishing on this thread?

Is this the invisible hand of the moderators, again?

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:11 am

.A specific post was moved, which also entailed moving replies which quoted it. Unless anything further constructive is forthcoming, the thread will be locked.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Tata1 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:51 am

Vaktar wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:42 am
Adamantine wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:05 am
The following is an open letter from Lady Diana Mukpo to the Shambhala community:
I suspect some of the commentators on this thread were in diapers -- or not even born -- when Trungpa Rinpoche passed away in 1987. You couldn't remember what Dharmadhatu (later rebranded Shambhala) centers were like, what sort of teachers and teachings were given. Well I was there, on occasion. I was just a college kid but Trungpa's students invited me into their cocktail parties. Later I was surreptitiously ushered into the VIP tent by the cremation pyre at Karme Choling, where I could see Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Trulshik Rinpoche, Shamar Rinpoche and the other Kagyu regents, H.H. Sakya Trizin and man other high lamas, tulkus and yogis, as well as the upper ranks of the Vajradhatu leadership, each performing their own rituals around the cremation. In Halifax that year I sat through many days of empowerments and teachings by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dzongsar Khyentse. Diana Mukpo, the Thomas Rich family and everyone who was ever anyone in Trungpa's life, all were there. I stayed as a guest in the group home of the lady who was head Shambhala Training then. On her wall was the calligraphed mantra of Green Tara, signed "Love, Chogyie". Many 1.5 litre bottles of sake were consumed every night after the Dzogchen teachings.

A few things I can definitely say for these folks, as I knew them, but probably woudn't say for a great many contributors in these forums. They had class. They had social skills. They knew how to keep it light. They had a profound sense of devotion. They didn't pretend to know about people or matters that they didn't know anything about. And they -- the old students of Trungpa -- could all carry on intelligent, searching conversations about the teachings, up to and including Dzogchen. That was entirely due to the kindness of Chogyam Trungpa.

I was just a straggler, dragged in on the robe-hem of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. But even so, I was lucky, probably luckier than most of you. The comments in this thread show just a bunch of ignorant boors Western Buddhists have become. You sound like the rabble that elected the current U.S. president. It's a sad, and I'm afraid, largely irremediable situation because some of your attitudes seem almost too vile to change. The times are bad. Blame and judgetarianism will not rectify the situation. Trying to learn from past mistakes is a good start. But the way some of you are talking, you never made any mistakes and therefore, don't need to learn from the mistakes that anyone else made either. At least Diana Mukpo is willing to admit that she's been at fault.
Thanks.
It always surprises me how people can have such strong opinions on way or the other about people and situations the know nothing about

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:43 am

let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
If there’s one teaching that should be universal among religions, that would be it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:46 am

let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I think if there’s one teaching that should be universal among religions, that would be it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Arupajhana7 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:42 pm

I believe to allow such abuses to go on unchallenged harms many peoples paths and harms the dharma in general. I agree with HHDL in the following statement he made:

“Through every effort, we must stop this kind of situation. The claim if you have the experience of the Buddha mind, anything goes is as far as I’m concerned – these are indication of the persons not having really properly understood the implications of emptiness, rather that the persons’ view of emptiness is incorrect. This is partly result of lack of proper understanding of the dharma, both on the part of the teacher and also on part of the students. I think one good thing is recently, I also received some letter about sexual, ethical issues. Usually I encourage these kinds of letters. Come out! Criticize! Openly! That is the only way, the individual name is worthwhile to mention in some newspaper. Make clear. Then other people will know. And that person also, now in a way they, the person doing wrong things, any way they regard buddha’s own message. We cannot appeal in such cases. In such cases where people are engaging in such unethical conducts, in a way they are totally disregarding Buddha’s teachings and message, therefore we don’t have any other recourse other than publicizing what they’ve done and make them regret or embarrassed because of their undoings. As a Buddhist according to our own experience, Buddha’s message is something that’s a good thing. When we mention and publicize these things we should make clear – these are not Buddhist teachings or Buddhist teachers. In order to teach other people or help other people in spiritual way, first they themselves they must improve… These individuals’ behavior is totally against Buddhist teaching. “ -HHDL

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by PeterC » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:20 pm

smcj wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:43 am
let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
If there’s one teaching that should be universal among religions, that would be it.
A better one would be primum non nocere.

This was a thread about osel Mukpo, who we now know to be violent, a sexual abuser, a rapist, an alcoholic, and overly fond of money. And somehow we shouldn’t talk about this, because it might offend former students of his father’s? What are we supposed to do - say sure, let the rapist rape, who knows, he might be a genuine guru? Pure perception doesn’t require that we ignore what’s in front of our eyes.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Arupajhana7 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:30 pm

PeterC wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:20 pm
Pure perception doesn’t require that we ignore what’s in front of our eyes.
I agree. I believe it usually doesn't work when people try to reframe their abuses as pure perception. Instead it often becomes a form of repression.

Many of the cases in Shambhala people spent years trying to reframe experiences that felt harmful to them as some kind of teaching or blessing but in the end they had to admit to themselves that it was abuse before they were able to start healing and moving on with their lives.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by DechenDave » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:44 pm

The problem, I think, when Shambhala threads go awry (which is usually) is that people are rightfully upset and feel compelled to openly discuss actual abuses, but then in doing so, comments sometimes become mean-spirited, gossipy, judgy, shame-y, victim-blame-y, ignoriant, uninformed and so on.
It’s not black and white and certainly not simplistic. CTR was not a charlatain, was not Tom Rich, not the “Sakyong”. There are reasons (including Samaya) many people were and are still very devoted to CTR. That their devotion has been repeatedly exploited and that the org is often quite dysfunctional in the way it deals with crisis is tragic. Yes. No one denies that.

Should it be discussed openly? Sure. Should it be discussed ad nauseum when the discussions hit the limits of usefulness? Probably not. It almost invariably devolves into twitter-like virtue signalling and smearing.

Also, while there are many great teachers in the world , for many people Shambhala is the only in-person action around. Many people join with open eyes, hoping for some dharma instruction with the impression that Shambhala has professional crisis-management processes befitting their appearance as a slick, large corporation. Sort of like joining Kripalu, despite its past. Or the Catholic Church for that matter. Some religions, orgs, groups, nations, people etc.. are bigger than than the individual tragedies that may have occured in various moments in history.
Is Shambhala one of these groups? I have no idea. But its one thing to call out tragedy, and quite another to decide for oneself the group is straight-up rotten to the core and then start projecting on people you dont know.

Imo.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Nemo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:28 pm

My problem is Trungpa would always have a few miracles up his sleeve to wash away his bad actions. In the last 30 years those powers within the group have diminished. A dog can't jump like a lion. Dogs have to keep moral discipline. It's great a lion came decades ago. When it came time for those in charge of keeping his seat warm to step aside or at the very least not make Dharma look bad they failed. You need to get things in order out of respect for Trungpa. Wasn't the Regent a wake up call? "Beware the Regent," remember those final words. Yet still nothing has changed. Stories about the good old days no longer cut it. It's time to produce some miracles or keep conventional morality so as not to damage the reputation of the Dharma further and drive people away. If an attractive naive young woman wanted to learn meditation would you send her to the local Dharmadhatu without at least warning her? Exactly. People are angry because you are making it our business. You are abusing the brand in modern day terms.
Sure a lion is not as constrained by Karma as a regular sentient being. But getting stinky drunk and teaching by example to ordinary beings that Karma doesn't matter is getting old. The Regent scandal was so long ago. Why didn't you fix things then. I suspect even now those in charge are just waiting for things to blow over. Just like with the Regent problem. If you want to be left alone stop habitually doing illegal and creepy things that get put on national news services. Or at least accept that actions have consequences. If you loved Trungpa you would fix this.

I'm not even sure in my mind if I associate Shambala with Trungpa anymore. If you keep adding water to a bottle of whiskey every year eventually it's just water.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by DechenDave » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:25 pm

Regardless of ones feelings about the “American Buddha” couple that terrorized the old Tricycle board, I found this essay to be eye opening. How true it all is I don’t know, and it is only his perspective, but it has quite a bit of explanatory power in terms of how the current state of Shambhala came about. It was written long before the recent Sakyong scandals so it doesnt shed a lot of direct light on that. But my purpose in posting it is to show that the situation is more complex than people larping as drunk lions. The enabling and insulation created around top brass people in situations like this is always about power, politics, strategy and often money. Not everyone has the access, skill, understanding or even courage to overthrow a regime. Why they don’t at least leave if they know whats going on I cant say. I’m not them. Stockholm syndrom, brainwashing, guilt, fear, shame etc... its out of my paygrade.

http://survivorbb.rapeutation.com/viewt ... &start=201
Last edited by DechenDave on Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by PeterC » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:31 pm

DechenDave wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:44 pm
Also, while there are many great teachers in the world , for many people Shambhala is the only in-person action around.
I’m not so sure that’s such a good reason anymore. You really don’t need to be next door to your teachers, particularly now that there’s a number of very good teachers with well-organised online teaching.
Many people join with open eyes, hoping for some dharma instruction with the impression that Shambhala has professional crisis-management processes befitting their appearance as a slick, large corporation. Sort of like joining Kripalu, despite its past. Or the Catholic Church for that matter. Some religions, orgs, groups, nations, people etc.. are bigger than than the individual tragedies that may have occured in various moments in history.
Is Shambhala one of these groups? I have no idea.
I think you do have an idea. It’s commendable to reserve judgment. But I think we all, at this point, have a pretty good idea.
But its one thing to call out tragedy, and quite another to decide for oneself the group is straight-up rotten to the core and then start projecting on people you dont know.
You may be underestimating the familiarity of people in this thread with shambhala, ctr, etc. It’s not all projection.

There is an argument that moderators should close threads where no new information is emerging and the discussion has run its course, and we got there in the shambhala discussion a long time ago. On the other hand, people feel strongly about these issues, and I don’t think we can tell them to shut up - on either side of the discussion.

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by DechenDave » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:34 pm

PeterC wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:31 pm
DechenDave wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:44 pm
Also, while there are many great teachers in the world , for many people Shambhala is the only in-person action around.
I’m not so sure that’s such a good reason anymore. You really don’t need to be next door to your teachers, particularly now that there’s a number of very good teachers with well-organised online teaching.
Many people join with open eyes, hoping for some dharma instruction with the impression that Shambhala has professional crisis-management processes befitting their appearance as a slick, large corporation. Sort of like joining Kripalu, despite its past. Or the Catholic Church for that matter. Some religions, orgs, groups, nations, people etc.. are bigger than than the individual tragedies that may have occured in various moments in history.
Is Shambhala one of these groups? I have no idea.
I think you do have an idea. It’s commendable to reserve judgment. But I think we all, at this point, have a pretty good idea.
But its one thing to call out tragedy, and quite another to decide for oneself the group is straight-up rotten to the core and then start projecting on people you dont know.
You may be underestimating the familiarity of people in this thread with shambhala, ctr, etc. It’s not all projection.

There is an argument that moderators should close threads where no new information is emerging and the discussion has run its course, and we got there in the shambhala discussion a long time ago. On the other hand, people feel strongly about these issues, and I don’t think we can tell them to shut up - on either side of the discussion.
All fair enough. My “projection” comment however, was strictly aimed at comments that sounded a little bit like blaming people for just turning up at their local SHambhala Center. I was unclear. Sorry.

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