Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

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Nemo
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Nemo » Wed May 08, 2019 10:25 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:17 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:12 pm
Okay, so your suggestion is...?
Not treating women like shit or props maybe? I know it's a crazy radical notion, but it might just be connected to what's going on here.
Exactly. I dated much older women when I was young and it was criminal in some jurisdictions. But they weren't assholes.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 08, 2019 10:37 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:25 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:17 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:12 pm
Okay, so your suggestion is...?
Not treating women like shit or props maybe? I know it's a crazy radical notion, but it might just be connected to what's going on here.
Exactly. I dated much older women when I was young and it was criminal in some jurisdictions. But they weren't assholes.
Yeah, it's much more about the behavior. I'm not some prude, I've seen all kinds of socially taboo relationships that aren't abusive, but when power is being used in one direction solely for one's own pleasure, that shit is toxic no matter who the parties involved are.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by smcj » Wed May 08, 2019 11:14 pm

Yeah, it's much more about the behavior. I'm not some prude, I've seen all kinds of socially taboo relationships that aren't abusive, but when power is being used in one direction solely for one's own pleasure, that shit is toxic no matter who the parties involved are.
I have several friends that were rock’n’roll roadies in their younger years. I can’t repeat even a single story of theirs on DW. Suffice it to say that #metoo would not approve.

Why isn’t someone like David Lee Roth being shamed by #metoo?? It’s not because he’s always been a gentleman. It’s expected of him that he is wild and outrageous. The difference is that a rock star isn’t in a position of trust or authority like a lama is. Add to that the issue of hypocrisy and #metoo has a point when it comes to Dharma.

Make no mistake, guru groupies do exist as well as actual victims and healthy relationships. Since I t’s not possible to distinguish one from another in court, a blanket rule has to be made: keep your hands off the students. Get your jollies elsewhere. The groupies will adapt their strategies. The victims will be protected. And a bunch of teachers will find out what it’s like to deal with western women the advantages of power and prestige. That’s an education that will help their practice.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Yavana » Wed May 08, 2019 11:25 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:25 pm
But they weren't assholes.
Good thing for you. Violence by proxy is exponentially more powerful and you'd have had the fight of your life while being assigned the blame. Our kaliyuga times are interesting and they're only going to get more interesting, I think.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed May 08, 2019 11:36 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:55 pm

My point is simply about being a hypocrite. Don't pretend to be a monk and carelessly bang randoms on the side. Especially if it seems you only want to publicly have vows to make a living. I know a few Lama marriages full of infidelity, betrayal and anger as well. The problem is using rank and psychological manipulation. Generally by the dudes who never had game to begin with. A young consort is wonderful for your health and practice. A truly monumental blessing. One that needs respect, enthusiastic consent and discretion. A good consort can easily prolong the life of a teacher by decades even.

Telling girls to lay on the floor or bend over is not foreplay. Tricks like locking them alone in rooms and invading their personal space, threats, manipulation, lying, etc, etc,... The deluge of creepy behavior coming out lately is severely damaging the Dharma. We will become a joke like Catholic priests.
I think the Dharma is going to be so much better off with these exposures. If it' becomes a joke, I'd rather it be an honest one than continue a terrible lie that needs to be revealed.

I remember offering to help this Tibetan artist refugee who had come to the US and my group asked if people could give him a place to stay. I tentatively offered my space, and was shocked when he tried to make the moves on me. I shut him down, but it was for me an eye opener that this meek appearing, little Buddhist (of all things!) guy was just a wolf in sheep clothing, using the Dharma and Buddhism to exploit his own artistic career goals. So, let's all just stop having false notions of purity, unrealistic expectations, and these outdated teacher/student power differentials need to be done away with imo.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed May 08, 2019 11:46 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:14 pm
Yeah, it's much more about the behavior. I'm not some prude, I've seen all kinds of socially taboo relationships that aren't abusive, but when power is being used in one direction solely for one's own pleasure, that shit is toxic no matter who the parties involved are.
I have several friends that were rock’n’roll roadies in their younger years. I can’t repeat even a single story of theirs on DW. Suffice it to say that #metoo would not approve.

Why isn’t someone like David Lee Roth being shamed by #metoo?? It’s not because he’s always been a gentleman. It’s expected of him that he is wild and outrageous. The difference is that a rock star isn’t in a position of trust or authority like a lama is. Add to that the issue of hypocrisy and #metoo has a point when it comes to Dharma.

Make no mistake, guru groupies do exist as well as actual victims and healthy relationships. Since I t’s not possible to distinguish one from another in court, a blanket rule has to be made: keep your hands off the students. Get your jollies elsewhere. The groupies will adapt their strategies. The victims will be protected. And a bunch of teachers will find out what it’s like to deal with western women the advantages of power and prestige. That’s an education that will help their practice.
To me the difference is consent. Why don't rock stars get complaints of sexual harassment is because those women were basically complicit and into it. Unless it's R Kelly keeeping sex slaves. The problem with these Lamas is the girls' really "weren't that into them." I think men/people just should learn to not molest or use their power to sexually abuse others. It's not that hard to learn and respect the obvious cues that a person is interested in them or not.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Yavana » Wed May 08, 2019 11:58 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:46 pm
I think men/people just should learn to not molest or use their power to sexually abuse others. It's not that hard to learn and respect the obvious cues that a person is interested in them or not.
I think the species is better off cultivating compassion towards one another in recognition of our interdependent interconnectedness. That's a lot of self-policing. Until then, I expect lots of abuse, whether purely sexual, sadomasochistic, or even sensual in some cases, from individuals bearing whatever chromosomes or orientation. It isn't like the world is getting more equal st the moment, and plenty are betting on being on the winning side of increasing inequality—however long those benefits can actually last in reality.

The Tibetans... I don't know what to think, really.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Nemo » Thu May 09, 2019 12:07 am

Yavana wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:25 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:25 pm
But they weren't assholes.
Good thing for you. Violence by proxy is exponentially more powerful and you'd have had the fight of your life while being assigned the blame. Our kaliyuga times are interesting and they're only going to get more interesting, I think.
In retrospect things with the psychologist got a bit weird and as a 17 year old I was thoroughly out of my depth. I've dated 3 so far and met their colleagues socially. That profession attracts a strange group. Many with issues of control and BDSM enthusiasts in my limited experience. Having asked if it was just me they replied my evaluation was correct. They have strict rules about patient boundaries. Perhaps Buddhism should adopt something similar.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 09, 2019 3:16 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:46 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:14 pm
Yeah, it's much more about the behavior. I'm not some prude, I've seen all kinds of socially taboo relationships that aren't abusive, but when power is being used in one direction solely for one's own pleasure, that shit is toxic no matter who the parties involved are.
I have several friends that were rock’n’roll roadies in their younger years. I can’t repeat even a single story of theirs on DW. Suffice it to say that #metoo would not approve.

Why isn’t someone like David Lee Roth being shamed by #metoo?? It’s not because he’s always been a gentleman. It’s expected of him that he is wild and outrageous. The difference is that a rock star isn’t in a position of trust or authority like a lama is. Add to that the issue of hypocrisy and #metoo has a point when it comes to Dharma.

Make no mistake, guru groupies do exist as well as actual victims and healthy relationships. Since I t’s not possible to distinguish one from another in court, a blanket rule has to be made: keep your hands off the students. Get your jollies elsewhere. The groupies will adapt their strategies. The victims will be protected. And a bunch of teachers will find out what it’s like to deal with western women the advantages of power and prestige. That’s an education that will help their practice.
To me the difference is consent. Why don't rock stars get complaints of sexual harassment is because those women were basically complicit and into it. Unless it's R Kelly keeeping sex slaves. The problem with these Lamas is the girls' really "weren't that into them." I think men/people just should learn to not molest or use their power to sexually abuse others. It's not that hard to learn and respect the obvious cues that a person is interested in them or not.
:good:

Some of the "no it's x" type arguments in this very thread show just how sadly difficult it is for some people to get this, a lot of men simply don't respect the autonomy and dignity of women, that's it. If these men are in power, that lack of respect can come out in just this sort of abuse. I don't get why it's so difficult to acknowledge. It also doesn't require someone to even be a feminist or a left leaning person to agree that this is a glaring, obvious problem.

I know old-guard conservatives and even evangelicals who would even admit to this being so, though from a different point of view, the whole white knight sort of thing.
Make no mistake, guru groupies do exist as well as actual victims and healthy relationships. Since I t’s not possible to distinguish one from another in court, a blanket rule has to be made: keep your hands off the students. Get your jollies elsewhere. The groupies will adapt their strategies. The victims will be protected.
Sure, abuse is always more complicated than a good guy and a bad guy (reverse genders as needed), but the person with the power is the one who shares the bulk of the moral culpability, that should be common sense.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by PeterC » Thu May 09, 2019 3:26 am

Nemo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:32 pm
Many years ago my Teacher asked after a decent retreat if I thought I could teach meditation since I had passed certain tests. I had to answer him honestly. "No Rinpoche, I would bang all my students."
:rolling:

I think there's situations where it's ok for a teacher to bang their students. But the preconditions should include consent and no secrecy. And probably no guru-student vajrayana relationship either, for reasons discussed endlessly elsewhere.

Really these matters can often be very simple. If a student has been coerced, they have legal recourse, and like the student in this case, they should use it.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by jmlee369 » Thu May 09, 2019 4:59 am

smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm
Monk” means celibate. “Rinpoche” does not.

For anyone that has preconceived notions about what the rinpoche title means I suggest they watch Gesar Mukpo’s documentary “Tulku”. It’s quite an eye-opener.
this person seems to be a monk.
What makes you think so? I live with monks, nuns, and people that wear “lay robes”. The difference in clothing comes down to how the skirt is folded. I still have to look twice to see the difference.
It's really not that difficult. If they own or ever wear either one of the yellow, patched robes (namjar or chogo), then they are a getsul/ma or gelong/ma. For gelong/ma, their skirt (shamthab) should also be patched.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Lingpupa » Thu May 09, 2019 8:45 am

My heart goes out to Jaki, and her courage to let us see her obvious pain.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by zerwe » Thu May 09, 2019 1:05 pm


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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu May 09, 2019 5:57 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:36 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:55 pm

My point is simply about being a hypocrite. Don't pretend to be a monk and carelessly bang randoms on the side. Especially if it seems you only want to publicly have vows to make a living. I know a few Lama marriages full of infidelity, betrayal and anger as well. The problem is using rank and psychological manipulation. Generally by the dudes who never had game to begin with. A young consort is wonderful for your health and practice. A truly monumental blessing. One that needs respect, enthusiastic consent and discretion. A good consort can easily prolong the life of a teacher by decades even.

Telling girls to lay on the floor or bend over is not foreplay. Tricks like locking them alone in rooms and invading their personal space, threats, manipulation, lying, etc, etc,... The deluge of creepy behavior coming out lately is severely damaging the Dharma. We will become a joke like Catholic priests.
I think the Dharma is going to be so much better off with these exposures. If it' becomes a joke, I'd rather it be an honest one than continue a terrible lie that needs to be revealed.


i agree :sage:

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Nemo » Thu May 09, 2019 6:21 pm

https://globalnews.ca/news/5257835/pope ... jJLJj-UTyc

Pope makes it mandatory for priests, nuns to report sex abuse. An interesting idea.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by AJP » Thu May 09, 2019 7:47 pm

I hope for swift healing for all concerned, especially those who have the courage to speak.

In Samsara we're all Victims or Victimisers.

May the Vajrayana Dharma be practised well and all beings find the Dharma of Non-Abiding and liberate others too as intended!

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by crazy-man » Thu May 09, 2019 10:44 pm

more Press
http://www.tibetanjournal.com/senior-ti ... l-assault/

there is also a big english and chinese article on the "dolgyal" website.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by shaunc » Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am

The problem in my opinion is the vow of celibacy. Celibacy goes against human nature generally speaking. The people that take these vows often take them quite young in their lives.
I believe that many of them would feel stigmatized and ostracized if they disrobed to lead the life of a lay follower, but because the sex drive is so strong they look for a sexual partner that they can intimidate into silence.
The Catholic church and children is a perfect example of this dynamic coming into play.
Just my opinion.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 10, 2019 5:06 am

shaunc wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am
The problem in my opinion is the vow of celibacy. Celibacy goes against human nature generally speaking. The people that take these vows often take them quite young in their lives.
I believe that many of them would feel stigmatized and ostracized if they disrobed to lead the life of a lay follower, but because the sex drive is so strong they look for a sexual partner that they can intimidate into silence.
The Catholic church and children is a perfect example of this dynamic coming into play.
Just my opinion.

Why does the exact same thing happen all the time with men in power who are not celibate then? Do you think institutions with no celibacy don't experience sexual abuse like this?

Half the time it happens in Vajrayana it is not celibate teachers anyway, Zen same thing, even more since there is no Vinaya-following monks there.

For that matter, what gave you guys complaining about celibacy the idea that sexual abuse like this is confined to religious institutions at all? The evidence is very much to the contrary.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by PeterC » Fri May 10, 2019 6:13 am

shaunc wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am
The problem in my opinion is the vow of celibacy. Celibacy goes against human nature generally speaking. The people that take these vows often take them quite young in their lives.
I believe that many of them would feel stigmatized and ostracized if they disrobed to lead the life of a lay follower, but because the sex drive is so strong they look for a sexual partner that they can intimidate into silence.
The Catholic church and children is a perfect example of this dynamic coming into play.
Just my opinion.
I agree to some extent, but there's a large gap between breaking vows of celibacy and committing rape. Monks have been sleeping with women since there have been monks. There have always been ways to do that that don't involve coercion.

In any case, when these situations arise the first question isn't whether the person was breaking their vows - it's whether they committed abuse. The right response is (a) making a complaint when there's been an offense, and (b) making others aware of it to protect them. The victim here has done both, which is commendable.

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