Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri May 10, 2019 6:57 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:13 am
shaunc wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am
The problem in my opinion is the vow of celibacy. Celibacy goes against human nature generally speaking. The people that take these vows often take them quite young in their lives.
I believe that many of them would feel stigmatized and ostracized if they disrobed to lead the life of a lay follower, but because the sex drive is so strong they look for a sexual partner that they can intimidate into silence.
The Catholic church and children is a perfect example of this dynamic coming into play.
Just my opinion.
I agree to some extent, but there's a large gap between breaking vows of celibacy and committing rape. Monks have been sleeping with women since there have been monks. There have always been ways to do that that don't involve coercion.

In any case, when these situations arise the first question isn't whether the person was breaking their vows - it's whether they committed abuse. The right response is (a) making a complaint when there's been an offense, and (b) making others aware of it to protect them. The victim here has done both, which is commendable.
can you trust someone who don't keeps his/her word? why take vow if not paying attention?

i don't think much that this person commited sexual harassments due to compassion or for creating a karmic conection, so why don't hang the robes and go as a lay, a householder, normal person?

from my point of view this case is due to lack of discipline :shrug: .

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by shaunc » Fri May 10, 2019 7:50 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:06 am
shaunc wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 am
The problem in my opinion is the vow of celibacy. Celibacy goes against human nature generally speaking. The people that take these vows often take them quite young in their lives.
I believe that many of them would feel stigmatized and ostracized if they disrobed to lead the life of a lay follower, but because the sex drive is so strong they look for a sexual partner that they can intimidate into silence.
The Catholic church and children is a perfect example of this dynamic coming into play.
Just my opinion.


Why does the exact same thing happen all the time with men in power who are not celibate then? Do you think institutions with no celibacy don't experience sexual abuse like this?

Half the time it happens in Vajrayana it is not celibate teachers anyway, Zen same thing, even more since there is no Vinaya-following monks there.

For that matter, what gave you guys complaining about celibacy the idea that sexual abuse like this is confined to religious institutions at all? The evidence is very much to the contrary.
Of course sexual abuse happens in all sectors of society.
But we're discussing sexual abuse in a religious institution.
When you consider what a very small percentage of men have taken a vow of celibacy and the percentage of these men that wind up before the courts charged with sex offences, they're probably over represented.
The other thing being overlooked by you is that rightly or wrongly the public tend to expect a relatively high standard of morals and ethics from religious instructors than they would from say motor mechanics, school teachers, accountants or just about any other profession that you can think of.

Bristollad
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Bristollad » Fri May 10, 2019 8:08 am

Maybe we need to remember that these are allegations at this point, not proven facts.

If Rinpoche has broken the law then he should be prosecuted, if he has broken his Vinaya discipline then he should sanctioned in accordance with those rules too. But, we don’t yet know that is the case.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by shaunc » Fri May 10, 2019 8:46 am

Bristollad wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:08 am
Maybe we need to remember that these are allegations at this point, not proven facts.

If Rinpoche has broken the law then he should be prosecuted, if he has broken his Vinaya discipline then he should sanctioned in accordance with those rules too. But, we don’t yet know that is the case.
Very true.

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Nemo
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Nemo » Fri May 10, 2019 1:37 pm

There is a real problem on the path that can even take out Rinpoches. You cannot transmute repressed parts of yourself. Sins you do not confess cannot be purified.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 10, 2019 4:01 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:37 pm
There is a real problem on the path that can even take out Rinpoches. You cannot transmute repressed parts of yourself. Sins you do not confess cannot be purified.
Excellent post.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

Matylda
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Matylda » Fri May 10, 2019 6:19 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm

any clergy/congregant sex is classified as abuse if the congregant complains. That’s true even if the congregant initiates it and willingly participated for years. After it’s over, if they complain, it is abuse.
if so then it leaves a space for serious abuse of position by one who participated willingly, and got finally angry at a partner and makes complaint... any relationship which breakes off is mostly filled with complaints. so if one is a teacher, male or female and was in relationship with a congregant has not rights at all since one complaint puts him or her down.. from legal point of view it is crazy, not to say about rights, seriously.. I do not refer to the case described by the ex-nun, just refer to the statemnet in quotation

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by smcj » Fri May 10, 2019 7:57 pm

Matylda wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:19 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm

any clergy/congregant sex is classified as abuse if the congregant complains. That’s true even if the congregant initiates it and willingly participated for years. After it’s over, if they complain, it is abuse.
if so then it leaves a space for serious abuse of position by one who participated willingly, and got finally angry at a partner and makes complaint... any relationship which breakes off is mostly filled with complaints. so if one is a teacher, male or female and was in relationship with a congregant has not rights at all since one complaint puts him or her down.. from legal point of view it is crazy, not to say about rights, seriously.. I do not refer to the case described by the ex-nun, just refer to the statemnet in quotation
I do not understand your point.
Want to try again?
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Matylda
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Matylda » Fri May 10, 2019 8:24 pm

smcj wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:57 pm
Matylda wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:19 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm

any clergy/congregant sex is classified as abuse if the congregant complains. That’s true even if the congregant initiates it and willingly participated for years. After it’s over, if they complain, it is abuse.
if so then it leaves a space for serious abuse of position by one who participated willingly, and got finally angry at a partner and makes complaint... any relationship which breakes off is mostly filled with complaints. so if one is a teacher, male or female and was in relationship with a congregant has not rights at all since one complaint puts him or her down.. from legal point of view it is crazy, not to say about rights, seriously.. I do not refer to the case described by the ex-nun, just refer to the statemnet in quotation
I do not understand your point.
Want to try again?
no, does not matter, really

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat May 11, 2019 11:24 pm

It's true that in certain circumstances, such as a therapist/counselor having sex with a client/patient, it is always considered abuse, regardless of whether or not the patient thought it was consensual.

As far as the notion that these are just allegations and we need to withhold judgment, well yes, but in reality, most sexual abuse can never be 100% proven. It doesn't mean it didn't happen or that the victim should not be believed because there is no solid "proof."

There's various burdens of proof, one is clear and convincing evidence, another is preponderance of evidence, both are lesser than beyond a reasonable doubt, but still legitimate in legal situations. I'm working on a case right now, representing a girl who says her father has molested her since she was 6 (she's now 13). There's no DNA evidence, but I'm sustaining the allegations based upon a lot of relevant information. I'll gladly take the stand on the girl's behalf.

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by smcj » Sun May 12, 2019 1:12 am

We recently had a woman try to manipulate the present environment with a false accusation. It was demonstrably false since she tried using a photograph to substantiate her claim. The problem was that the photo was of an earlier event that involved other people, and it had already been amicably resolved.

It’s human beings living the gamut of scenarios. Abuse happens. Consent happens. False accusations happen. Trying to sort out what’s what on a case-by-case basis is unworkable. So it’s all got to stop. Make it like psychiatrist and patient off limits. That may be throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I don’t see any other way for society to manage it.

Strangely enough what I’ve just said is the same conclusion as the #metoo movement. Even though I do not agree with all their arguments I do agree with their answer. Nice how that worked out.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

smcj
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by smcj » Sun May 12, 2019 2:15 am

p.s. it will also benefit Dharma by removing the distraction of endless lama dramas.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

crazy-man
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by crazy-man » Sun May 12, 2019 12:06 pm

news:
Will the FPMT Stand by its Code of Ethics?
https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... of-ethics/

Second woman alleges molestation by Dagri Rinpoche
http://tibetexpress.net/10307/second-wo ... -rinpoche/

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tobes
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by tobes » Mon May 13, 2019 1:11 am

I think there's a lot at stake in this, given that it is the FPMT. They simply must undertake a serious and impartial investigation and if there is any kind of evidence, he should absolutely be shown the door.

smcj
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by smcj » Mon May 13, 2019 2:05 am

Second woman alleges molestation by Dagri Rinpoche
Could you define what you mean by “molestation”?
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Bristollad
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Bristollad » Mon May 13, 2019 9:41 am

tobes wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:11 am
I think there's a lot at stake in this, given that it is the FPMT. They simply must undertake a serious and impartial investigation and if there is any kind of evidence, he should absolutely be shown the door.
The F P M T are to undertake the roles of the police, the judge and the jury? What makes you think they have the expertise or impartiality necessary?

At this stage, the criminal allegations need to be resolved. If there are others who have accounts to give, ideally they should come forward (though we all know why that can be problematical). Perhaps that could be a role for the F P M T : to provide a means for people to come forward and give their accounts (anonymously, unless and until that person decides otherwise) and to receive any help required: emotional, psychological or legal.

If it seems that their ethical policy (of the F P M T ) has been breached (whether that breach is criminal or not), then they should distance themselves. Whilst these accusations are unresolved, I think it would be wise for the organisation to suspend his role as a touring teacher.

Just to be clear, I’m saying this as one of Rinpoche’s many students.

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tobes
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by tobes » Mon May 13, 2019 9:53 am

Bristollad wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:41 am
tobes wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:11 am
I think there's a lot at stake in this, given that it is the FPMT. They simply must undertake a serious and impartial investigation and if there is any kind of evidence, he should absolutely be shown the door.
The F P M T are to undertake the roles of the police, the judge and the jury? What makes you think they have the expertise or impartiality necessary?

At this stage, the criminal allegations need to be resolved. If there are others who have accounts to give, ideally they should come forward (though we all know why that can be problematical). Perhaps that could be a role for the F P M T : to provide a means for people to come forward and give their accounts (anonymously, unless and until that person decides otherwise) and to receive any help required: emotional, psychological or legal.

If it seems that their ethical policy (of the F P M T ) has been breached (whether that breach is criminal or not), then they should distance themselves. Whilst these accusations are unresolved, I think it would be wise for the organisation to suspend his role as a touring teacher.

Just to be clear, I’m saying this as one of Rinpoche’s many students.
When I say the FPMT should undertake an impartial investigation, I mean that they should employ the services of (external/non affiliated) people capable of doing such a thing. It's very common for corporations to do this when there are ethics breaches in corporate organizations.Typically it might involve an ex-judge or QC or someone else with relevant qualifications to discern true evidence from false; they take a few months, conduct the investigation and hand down a report.

I think this is the right move in this case. The FPMT has a well earned and excellent reputation - it is worth its weight in gold three times over. So anything which potentially corrupts this from the inside must be treated very diligently. LZR will not be around forever.

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heart
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by heart » Mon May 13, 2019 2:17 pm

Looks like it will go the same way as all these things seem to go.
60047856_10156382464619226_3099458626557837312_n.jpg
60047856_10156382464619226_3099458626557837312_n.jpg (103.98 KiB) Viewed 432 times
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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Matylda
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Matylda » Mon May 13, 2019 6:01 pm

so it is his voice finally...
now people may freely dump him :D


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