Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

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crazy-man
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by crazy-man »

With the Kālāmas of Kesamutta
Please, Kālāmas, don’t go by oral transmission, don’t go by lineage, don’t go by testament, don’t go by canonical authority, don’t rely on logic, don’t rely on inference, don’t go by reasoned contemplation, don’t go by the acceptance of a view after consideration, don’t go by the appearance of competence, and don’t think ‘The ascetic is our respected teacher.’ But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are unskillful, blameworthy, criticized by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to harm and suffering’, then you should give them up.
---
Please, Kālāmas, don’t go by oral transmission, don’t go by lineage, don’t go by testament, don’t go by canonical authority, don’t rely on logic, don’t rely on inference, don’t go by reasoned contemplation, don’t go by the acceptance of a view after consideration, don’t go by the appearance of competence, and don’t think ‘The ascetic is our respected teacher.’ But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are skillful, blameless, praised by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to welfare and happiness’, then you should acquire them and keep them.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.65/en/sujato

Advice to Spiritual Mentors and Disciples from the Dalai Lama
Years ago, I heard about an abbot in Kham, Tibet. Some visitors came to see him. He was not there and his attendant told the visitors, “He has gone to scare the people in the nearby town.” It seems that this lama told people they would go to hell if they didn’t heed his instructions. This is not the Buddhist way.
I would like to speak frankly to both spiritual mentors and Dharma students. From 2012-2015 I taught the eighteen Lamrim texts. Some of these texts emphasize that the guru is Vajradhara, and if you don’t listen to your guru’s instructions, you will be born as a hell being. What is all this about? The Buddha never said if you don’t listen to his teachings and don’t do as he says you will be reborn in hell! The Buddha said that we should not accept teachings with blind faith but through having investigated and analysed them. This is the true way to follow the Buddha’s teachings.
https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... alai-lama/
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I guess we need to develop a nose for true devotion vs. outward-facing cultural showings of devotion, or just not using our critical thinking skills.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Some additional HHDL quotes from the link provided:
https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... alai-lama/
HHDL wrote:Only in particular situations and to particular practitioners should it be taught that all the guru’s actions are perfect.
Notice he does not disavow the principle entirely.
If you have taken someone as your spiritual mentor and discover he is engaged in some questionable behaviour, you may stop attending his teachings. Avoid disrespect or antipathy; anger will only make you miserable. The Kalachakra Tantra advises maintaining a neutral attitude and not pursuing the relationship any further. Keep your distance and cultivate relationships with other teachers, but do not angrily denounce this person. He benefitted you in the past, and it is appropriate to acknowledge and appreciate that even though you do not follow him now …
Since then HHDL has changed that view. Specifically in the case of Sogyal R he said that publicly shaming a teacher was acceptable. I guess time and events changed his mind.
If you see that your friend’s relationship with a teacher is definitely harmful, it is suitable to warn him or her, simply stating facts in a nonjudgmental manner. But if that relationship is not harmful, it is best to leave things alone. The key to whether you create the negative karma of separating a disciple and teacher lies in the motivation. Actions motivated by an angry, judgmental attitude are to be avoided, whereas those based on compassion and tolerance are encouraged.
Gotta love HHDL. He’s quite a guy.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Yeshe Dorje
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Yeshe Dorje »

Here is some more thoughts from LZR. Taken from teachings he gave in Italy, 2017.

"Now. His Holiness always advises if some mistake is done.... Well, maybe I will say the example, like Sogyal Rinpoche, maybe I have to mention the name. Like that, like that, then His Holiness says to advertise it. Like that, for example, advertise; you have to advertise it in a newspaper, newspaper, newspaper, publicize it. His Holiness says to publicize it is the way to, the method, the way to stop that. His Holiness says for him [Sogyal Rinpoche] it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, but it is so bad for the monastery, for the public, for the monks. It is so bad for the monastery. I think it means it discourages them, they lose their inspiration, all that, so it is bad for the monastery. His Holiness says if you publicize like that, then he wants to keep his face, the guru. He doesn’t care about the people but he wants to keep his face, he cares about not losing face, so then publicizing it is the way to stop him. His Holiness said, advised, like that. That advice is [according to] His Holiness, the level of His Holiness in the world. In this world His Holiness is the only one who can judge whether anybody is right or wrong. He is the only one who can judge. He is the owner of the Buddhadharma. He is the owner of the Buddhadharma in the world, tenpai dagpo, so His Holiness can judge. So anyway, as His Holiness’ position, he can say that, but I can’t say that. I can’t say that. To the disciples, Sogyal Rinpoche’s disciples, at my level I can’t say that, but His Holiness can say that. His Holiness has to say that. His Holiness should say that. In his position, His Holiness should say that. Especially in the West, he should say that, he has to say that. I can’t say that to the disciples. I can’t say that, but His Holiness should say that. He should say that. Especially for the West, he should say that. So that is what I say. I cannot say [anything] regarding Sogyal Rinpoche. I don't know his mind. Because I don’t know his mind, I cannot say [whether] he is a buddha or a bodhisattva. What [he is], I cannot say. If I don’t know his mind, how can I judge?"
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:03 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:57 pm

next generation of monks won't have the same education as in tibet, what to expect then?
Not sure you quite get what I was saying. Whether they are raised in the Tibetan exile community within India or Nepal doesn't really affect what I am talking about. The question is whether someone is raised with "Western style" mores regarding how they talk about controversy.

I have to note with some serious irony that DJKR has basically a Western-style, confrontational sensibility about these things. So even where he is railing against "Western Chauvinism" or something he is upholding western style debate in his public polemics.

So i'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable by any means, I'm saying that we cannot expect people not raised with Western style communication and social mores to communicate with them. The woman in the video seems to think otherwise, and that's what I was addressing.
i see.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

smcj wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:47 am
Notice he does not disavow the principle entirely.
Why would he?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:05 am
smcj wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:47 am
Notice he does not disavow the principle entirely.
Why would he?
I have read on DW a few posts that opine against carte Blanche trust in the guru—ever.

Just sayin’....
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

smcj wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:39 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:05 am
smcj wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:47 am
Notice he does not disavow the principle entirely.
Why would he?
I have read on DW a few posts that opine against carte Blanche trust in the guru—ever.

Just sayin’....
Compared to what, the 90% who see it as vital on some level? Why do you spend so much energy on a few people (I don't even recall a statement that categorical being made here, btw), when the rest of us obviously see it as important, but might disagree on details? I thought you didn't even practice Vajrayana.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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PeterC
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by PeterC »

smcj wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:39 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:05 am
smcj wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:47 am
Notice he does not disavow the principle entirely.
Why would he?
I have read on DW a few posts that opine against carte Blanche trust in the guru—ever.

Just sayin’....
That's just wrong. The issue is whether we're talking about a genuine or a false guru. Many, many people here have opined against following Lakhar or Mukpo, because we don't consider them to be qualified gurus. If the guru is unqualified, no samaya exists, no responsibility to them ever existed in the first place. The majority of people on DW condemned those people. And indeed many people on DW said, if a guru is regularly involved in 'unconventional' teaching methods - abuse, sex, violence, excessive lifestyles, etc. - stay the hell away from them, just don't get involved, because the probability of them *not* being qualified is that much higher.

Sometimes you only find out that a lama is not qualified when they display this sort of behavior. So as all the texts state, one should make extensive enquiries about someone before accepting them as a guru, and since there are gurus who have an excellent reputation for realization, learning and conduct, there is really no reason to accept a 'risky' guru. And it really isn't difficult, to be honest. There are plenty of teachers in the world today, readily accessible, who are completely qualified and totally free from scandal. Anyone who had made even the most basic enquiries about Lakhar and Mukpo would have realized something about them was very, very wrong. I don't know Dagri R. personally, I don't know if these accusations are true or false, but I'm sure if he did abuse these women, it won't be the first time he did it, and stories will emerge about previous conduct. These things can't really be hidden, and they are patterns of behavior, not isolated incidents.

Now of course a qualified guru could use harsh methods to train a student. I've seen this happen on occasion and it looks nothing like what Lakhar and Mukpo were doing. I don't think it requires any deep wisdom to recognize the difference between this and abuse. But equally this is very uncommon and not something that most students will even encounter. Most people create enough pain and suffering for themselves through their own delusions without needing a lama to add to it.
His Holiness has to say that. His Holiness should say that. In his position, His Holiness should say that. Especially in the West, he should say that, he has to say that. I can’t say that to the disciples. I can’t say that, but His Holiness should say that. He should say that. Especially for the West, he should say that. So that is what I say. I cannot say [anything] regarding Sogyal Rinpoche. I don't know his mind. Because I don’t know his mind, I cannot say [whether] he is a buddha or a bodhisattva. What [he is], I cannot say. If I don’t know his mind, how can I judge?
[/unquote]

This is, I think, the correct answer for him to give. He doesn't want to express a negative view. Of course I would have liked him to say, Lakhar has no business teaching the dharma and nobody should follow him. But he can't say that, for the reasons he explains. However he gives unqualified support to HHDL's opinion on this matter, and he in no way defends Lakhar.
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Lingpupa
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Lingpupa »

crazy-man wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:36 pm Analysis about the current situation from Anne Iris Miriam Anders (PhD) who conducts a three-year research project at the Ludwig-Maximilians-University Munich funded by the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research (BMBF) on Tibetan medicine - including research in abuse in Buddhist communities -
https://www.en.transtibmed.ethnologie.u ... index.html
I finally got round to reading both Lama Zopa's advice and Anders' criticism. Her piece is in my opinion in essence a rant, disguised by using more long words in long sentences than is really advisable. I suppose if you are supposed to be doing research at a Uni, you have to try to look intellectual.

Worse than the writing style is a sense that she hasn't properly read the advice she is criticizing. She says, for instance:
When talking about such an ethical issue the wording that there would be no karma is just inappropriate, because it simply confuses the levels of practise and respective appropriate behavior.
But in my reading of Zopa's piece he refers to the idea of "no karma" precisely to say that this is not good enough - even a Buddha may have to suffer as a result of past bad karma.

Similarly Anders criticizes Zopa's use of the term "hallucination". It is a term in wide use in ordinary English discourse, and Zopa's use of it is not out of place. Yet Anders says:
...we are challenged to read the medical term hallucination with the connotation of a severe mental sickness being carelessly used...
Anders may chose to restrict her use of the word to what she considers to be a medically correct version, but she cannot expect to impose that on the rest of us. I, for instance, have considerable training in physics and engineering, in which fields "power" and "energy" are related but quite different things. Do I expect people to use those words in the sense that is correct in a discourse on physics, and do I complain when people use them loosely? Of course not.

And further to this, Zopa refers again to hallucination in a particular context: he says that to dismiss things as hallucination is nihilist. It won't wash.

I cannot help but imagine that Anders skimmed Zopa's advice, found a few words that served as triggers, and went into the attack.

It might also be said that her implied criticism of the way the advice is written ("I wonder who wrote or translated the text" etc.) is a bit of what the pot called the kettle. Her command of English is impressive, but she is overreaching her writing ability here.
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by pemachophel »

Today is the beginning of Saga Dawa. Could we please close this thread?
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Pero »

Garudavista wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:56 pm https://youtu.be/AXI7h72a6R4?t=15m9s

In this video (15m9s in) Lama Lena advises a female Dzogchen practitioner on how to approach her concern about a teacher of hers who was recently accused of sexual abuse by some of his female students. Lama Lena gives the most honest and cogent advice I’ve ever heard any teacher give about this kind of problem. She even shares a personal story that involves her getting caught sleeping with one of her lama’s wives, which then caused that lama to quite seriously chase her around with an axe, to the point that Lama Lena had to climb on top of a shed to avoid being chopped up by him.
I’m posting this here because I believe her words may help any students who are struggling with the same problem as the student posing her question to Lama Lena.
Thanks for sharing this.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Thread has been locked as there is not much to discuss at the moment. Also it is Saka Dawa the holy month of Tibetan Buddhism as Pema has pointed out, therefore it might be better to let it be for some time. If somebody has something relevant to post contact the mods.
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Grigoris
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Re: Another Topic of molesting female practitioner

Post by Grigoris »

This may explain the sudden concerted attack against the FPMT.
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