Samayic Oxymoron?

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Tenma
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Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by Tenma » Sun May 19, 2019 11:48 pm

So the following states thus in a confessional prayer:
"A yogi must never associate, even for an instant,
With one who has transgressed the samaya."

However, if one is taking the bodhisattva path, then isn't one supposed to be helping all sentient beings, regardless of who they are? So one can't help nor speak thus with the samaya breakers?

Does one go to Avici for this? If so, then is one to join them rather then reach Buddhahood (I heard a Mahayana quote on a master preferring to join one in hell rather than following the Buddha) ?

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Miroku
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Re: Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by Miroku » Mon May 20, 2019 12:15 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:48 pm
So the following states thus in a confessional prayer:
"A yogi must never associate, even for an instant,
With one who has transgressed the samaya."

However, if one is taking the bodhisattva path, then isn't one supposed to be helping all sentient beings, regardless of who they are? So one can't help nor speak thus with the samaya breakers?

Does one go to Avici for this? If so, then is one to join them rather then reach Buddhahood (I heard a Mahayana quote on a master preferring to join one in hell rather than following the Buddha) ?
Garchen Rinpoche teaches that the real samaya is love and therefore the reason why samaya breakers go to hell is because they developed anger and lost love.

It really depends on the context. I think it most probably means true samaya breakers which is those who broke them knowingly and without regret. Those people are quite honestly already lost as without regret they will never purify samayas.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
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smcj
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Re: Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by smcj » Mon May 20, 2019 12:59 am

I suspect the answer is in what’s meant by “associate”.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 20, 2019 1:51 am

It means you don’t associate with them spiritually. It does not preclude one from being kind, helping etc., by my understanding.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

smcj
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Re: Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by smcj » Mon May 20, 2019 3:19 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:51 am
It means you don’t associate with them spiritually. It does not preclude one from being kind, helping etc., by my understanding.
I thought it meant hanging out and being buddies. That kind of relationship could lead you astray.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Simon E.
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Re: Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by Simon E. » Mon May 20, 2019 11:14 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:48 pm
So the following states thus in a confessional prayer:
"A yogi must never associate, even for an instant,
With one who has transgressed the samaya."

However, if one is taking the bodhisattva path, then isn't one supposed to be helping all sentient beings, regardless of who they are? So one can't help nor speak thus with the samaya breakers?

Does one go to Avici for this? If so, then is one to join them rather then reach Buddhahood (I heard a Mahayana quote on a master preferring to join one in hell rather than following the Buddha) ?
It would be interesting to know what term is being translated as “associate”.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

Tenma
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Can one break their samaya for the sake of sentient beings?

Post by Tenma » Mon May 20, 2019 3:17 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:51 am
It means you don’t associate with them spiritually. It does not preclude one from being kind, helping etc., by my understanding.
Is it possible to break your samaya in order to save beings from Avici and follow along the bodhisattva path?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Samayic Oxymoron?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 20, 2019 8:52 pm

smcj wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:19 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:51 am
It means you don’t associate with them spiritually. It does not preclude one from being kind, helping etc., by my understanding.
I thought it meant hanging out and being buddies. That kind of relationship could lead you astray.
I feel like that's implied, since it's already a part of all kinds of sutric teachings on abandoning bad companions etc. It still in no way means you can't help them as simply "sentient being", it means your relationship with them probably won't be Best Pal or Vajra/Dharma Sibling.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

jmlee369
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Re: Can one break their samaya for the sake of sentient beings?

Post by jmlee369 » Tue May 21, 2019 2:18 am

Tenma wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:17 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:51 am
It means you don’t associate with them spiritually. It does not preclude one from being kind, helping etc., by my understanding.
Is it possible to break your samaya in order to save beings from Avici and follow along the bodhisattva path?
If you have the ability to save beings from Avici, I don't think you'd be asking these questions about what constitutes a breach of samaya. There are also tantric methods for helping samaya breakers, but that is something far beyond most practitioner's abilities.

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