Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

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kalden yungdrung
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Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:13 am

Tashi delek,

We know him all The Dalai Lama.
A very high relaissed Bodhisattva and well respected in the 5 Tibetan Spiritual Traditions and outside.

His Holiness was questioned is there a need for a 15th Dalai Lama ?

Some remarks of His Holines the 15th Dalai Lama:

- The next Dalai Lama 15, would be not of his concern
- One of H.H. ´s main arguments, the Buddha Shakyamuni did not reincarnate, but his Dharma remained.

The best meditation is no meditation

FiveSkandhas
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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by FiveSkandhas » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:51 am

Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, another well-regraded and well-known Buddhist, said not long ago he thought the next Buddha would be the sangha. I take this to mean that the age of “gurus” and leaders is passing, and that in the future people will study and practice the Dharma as equals.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Sādhaka » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:46 pm

All Buddhas had at least one Guru, even the Buddha Shakyamuni.
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Simon E.
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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:27 pm

FiveSkandhas wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:51 am
Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, another well-regraded and well-known Buddhist, said not long ago he thought the next Buddha would be the sangha. I take this to mean that the age of “gurus” and leaders is passing, and that in the future people will study and practice the Dharma as equals.
Thich Nhat Hahn is indeed well known and well regarded, but he is not a Vajrayana teacher. And there is no Vajrayana without the lineage holder. The idea of “equals” is a modern idea which in terms of the Vajrayana is literally meaningless.
The Vajrayana is posited entirely on the authenticity of its teachers.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by FiveSkandhas » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:34 am

If the Sangha itself becomes the teacher (perhaps along with the Dharma), the three jewels still exist: it’s just that the Buddha is manifested in/as the Dharma and Sangha.

One can at least conceive of transmissions conferred by multiple members of the Sangha as opposed to a single guru. (Not saying this is necessarily the case; just floating the possibility).

I am fairly certain there are passages in the Dharma that suggest or even state that at the highest level, the three jewels are one anyway. Whether you accept this or not will probably depend on your views regarding the Dharmakaya, Buddha-nature, the identity of oneself (and other aspects of illusory reality) with the Buddha at the primal level, “original enlightenment,” and the like.

“The idea of “equals” is a modern idea which in terms of the Vajrayana is literally meaningless.”: Buddhism has always changed with the times (“expedient means is the ultimate”)...there has been more than one turning of the wheel...the higher and lower tantras as well as the different schools of vajrayana can differs quite a bit and still accept one another. And given expedient means, what is meaningless and meaningful is open to negotiation, in different times and places. Perhaps the idea of guru-less vajrayana mediated by the Sangha through the Dharma is too radical, but perhaps not.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:26 am

FiveSkandhas wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:34 am
I am fairly certain there are passages in the Dharma that suggest or even state that at the highest level, the three jewels are one anyway. Whether you accept this or not will probably depend on your views regarding the Dharmakaya, Buddha-nature, the identity of oneself (and other aspects of illusory reality) with the Buddha at the primal level, “original enlightenment,” and the like.
They are one, one within the Guru, that is.
“The idea of “equals” is a modern idea which in terms of the Vajrayana is literally meaningless.”: Buddhism has always changed with the times (“expedient means is the ultimate”)...there has been more than one turning of the wheel...the higher and lower tantras as well as the different schools of vajrayana can differs quite a bit and still accept one another. And given expedient means, what is meaningless and meaningful is open to negotiation, in different times and places. Perhaps the idea of guru-less vajrayana mediated by the Sangha through the Dharma is too radical, but perhaps not.
Buddhism has tended to change with the time and cultures it occurs in. However, it is always the case that in Vajrayana, one must have a Guru. Jigten Sumgon says in his Gongchik, and Padmasambhava said to Yeshe Tsogyal, respectively, that empowerment marks the beginning of Vajrayana (it is the difference between sutra and tantra), and there is no accomplishment without empowerment. You need a Guru for this. There is no other way, in this case. So, its not radical, its impossible.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 am

Lets be clear here ‘FiveSkandhas’ .
You are suggesting that the Vajrayana in its entirety has become, or is becoming obsolete and is being replaced by a newer form or expression of Buddhadharma which is posited on collegiate principles rather than on living and authoritative transmission from guru to pupil.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by PeterC » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:59 am

FiveSkandhas wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:34 am
Perhaps the idea of guru-less vajrayana mediated by the Sangha through the Dharma is too radical, but perhaps not.
If you believe that it is possible for there to be Vajrayana without the guru, you have not understood the teachings of the Vajrayana. It's not a question of how radical the idea is: it just doesn't and can't exist, like steel without iron or water without hydrogen.

At some point all the existing Buddhadharma in the world will decay and vanish. Ideas like this contribute to that, and as such, must be opposed.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:46 am

FiveSkandhas wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:34 am
Perhaps the idea of guru-less vajrayana mediated by the Sangha through the Dharma is too radical, but perhaps not.
Lol, there is literally no such thing as a "Guru-less" Vajrayana.

There are countless teachings in the Tantric texts and oral teachings about the absolute necessity of a Guru, and there are 0 teachings about a guru-less Vajrayana.

The Guru is not just a "Person" in the Vajrayana the Guru is the path.

It is equally as absurd as saying a "Lineage-less" Vajrayana
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:52 am

That'd be like a room of people with exceptionally poor eyesight giving one another directions on how to get to the next town, then trying to get there on the busiest street.. bad idea. Probably also the reason that the sangha we take refuge in is primarily the arya sangha, and not just people we associate with.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

FiveSkandhas
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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by FiveSkandhas » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:01 am

First of all, I am not asserting this idea, just speculating.
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:46 am
The Guru is not just a "Person" in the Vajrayana the Guru is the path.
If the Dharma and/or the Sangha come to be considered as identical with the Guru, the Guru does not vanish. The Dharma and the Sangha could be considered the path as well.

The Dalai Lama himself, in his introduction to a reading and commentary of Shantideva’s Bodhicharyavatara, (p 8):, reminds of the Four Reliances, the first of which is:
“Do not rely on individuals, rely on the teachings.”

Again, just food for thought. Please don’t attack me personally as though I am asserting this or that. As the non-Buddhist Aristotle noted: “the mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain ideas without immediately rejecting or embracing them.”

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by weitsicht » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:39 am

Well, I think the guru's quality isn't so much the entitlement to teach. It is the degree of ripeness and my karmic connection to him/her.
When progressing on the path, each situation becomes your guru.

But for starting-off I think most of us need our ego being confronted "the hard way":
Q: Must we have a spiritual friend before we can expose ourselves, or can we just open ourselves to the situations of life?
CTR: I think you need someone to watch you do it, because then it will seem more real to you. It is easy to undress in a doom with no one else around, but we find it difficult to undress ourselves in a room full of people.
Q: Do you think it is possible to begin to see what is, to see yourself as you are, without a teacher?
CTR: I do not think it is possible. You have to have a spiritual friend in order to surrender and completely open yourself.
Q: Is it absolutely necessary that the spiritual friend be a living human being?
CTR: Yes, any other "being" with whom you might think yourself communicating would be imaginary.
Both from "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism"
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:25 pm

FiveSkandhas wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:01 am
First of all, I am not asserting this idea, just speculating.
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:46 am
The Guru is not just a "Person" in the Vajrayana the Guru is the path.
If the Dharma and/or the Sangha come to be considered as identical with the Guru, the Guru does not vanish. The Dharma and the Sangha could be considered the path as well.

The Dalai Lama himself, in his introduction to a reading and commentary of Shantideva’s Bodhicharyavatara, (p 8):, reminds of the Four Reliances, the first of which is:
“Do not rely on individuals, rely on the teachings.”

Again, just food for thought. Please don’t attack me personally as though I am asserting this or that. As the non-Buddhist Aristotle noted: “the mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain ideas without immediately rejecting or embracing them.”
In the Vajrayana tradition the Guru embodies the three jewels and the three roots. Their mind is the Buddha, their speech the dharma, and their body the sangha.

Bodhicharyaavatara belongs to the Mahayana school.

When it says the Guru is the path, that has to do specifically with the methods of the Vajrayana for example how Guru Yoga functions.

I get it, but there is no need to "entertain ideas" about rabbits with horns. The Vajrayana is a tried and trued system, that is clearly explained. Many practitioners have achieved complete awakening from it. What would be a better idea would be to read what the Teachers say about this path, otherwise it's not a very humble approach.

For example, some people inspired when they hear teachings mentioning the "Inner Guru" feel that since they have an inner Guru they therefore do not need to reply on the "outer Guru". I can just rely on my own Inner Guru, without having to bow to some Tibetan man.

The thing is, one of the functions of the outer guru is having the requisite developed wisdom to be able to know their students minds and what their students need. To cut through the functions of the Ego.

So students who feel they do not need an outer guru, will be more prone to perceive what they like as being a teaching from the "inner guru" sometimes the spiritual path can be a brutal realization about our own selfishness and shortcomings, so with the outer guru there is not the game of picking and choosing what comforts the Ego as being the Guru principle.

Teachers can, and do, actually tell you when you are wrong in your understanding. I know it is such a strange idea that someone else might have more wisdom than we do, but it's a good way to proceed, it runs counter intuitive to the Ego, which is good, I think.

I remember a friend who had reservations, he found the idea of prostrating to another "human" very odd. The thing is that in the Guru principle you are actually not prostrating to "another human" the outer Guru is the display of your own Buddha nature, due to ones merit, instead of general phenomena, ones Buddha nature is manifesting as the "outer Guru" who will function as to wake us up.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Matt J » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 pm

I don't think there is anything mystical about the teacher in many forms of Buddhism. The teacher should be a teacher not because they hold a position as a lineage holder, although that may be the case. The teacher should be a teacher because they have realized the teachings. The devotion to the teacher comes because they show you also how to realize the teachings. If some one hasn't realized the teachings, there is nothing they can really teach except a bunch of empty concepts. Of course, there are probably plenty of teachers in all traditions who teach without having realized the teachings, but in this case they are a teacher in name only.

I think the comparison to surgery is apt because meditation practices literally rewire the brain. If I were going to a surgeon, and the surgeon said that they just got together with a bunch of medical students to teach themselves surgery, I would run away. With meditation, if we are serious, we are literally staking our mental health on the teacher and the teachings.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm

I think in these kind of conversations about such sensitive and profound topics, like the role of the Guru, I tend to here a lot of, in my opinion, I think this, in my view ..

I think we should do less of this, and base our understanding directly on the teachings of these Great teachers who have put effort in their kindness of sharing their tradition with us in the Western world.

Otherwise we might misappropriate, and water down the tradition.

Pick your teacher, Dudjom rinpoche, Dilgo khyentse rinpoche, Sakya trinzin rinpoche, Penor rinpoche, Minling trichen rinpoche, Namkha drimed rinpoche, Taklung tsetrul rinpoche, Tulku urgyen rinpoche, Thinley norbu rinpoche, 16th gyalwang karmapa..

They are all extremely clear about this in their teaching, so I don't get why people are still going on about their own personal views which seem to have very little to do with the actual tradition we are fortunate enough to be receiving?

& Keep in mind, HH the 14th Dalai lama is in a special position as a Global figure that many other teachers are not, many other teachers audience is exclusively buddhist, but HH the 14th Dalai lama constantly is teaching a mix of both Buddhists, and many other members of others faiths. So as a skillful means he does give provisional answers often. However, when he teaches to an intimate group of serious Vajrayana students, there is different content.

This does not in any way negate that he is a perfect Buddha, it's actually evidence of it.

However we Vajrayana practitioners discussing this should try our best to stay true to the tradition, and the teachings of that tradition among ourselves.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:09 pm

:good:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:09 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm
Pick your teacher, Dudjom rinpoche, Dilgo khyentse rinpoche, Sakya trinzin rinpoche, Penor rinpoche, Minling trichen rinpoche, Namkha drimed rinpoche, Taklung tsetrul rinpoche, Tulku urgyen rinpoche, Thinley norbu rinpoche, 16th gyalwang karmapa..

They are all extremely clear about this in their teaching, so I don't get why people are still going on about their own personal views which seem to have very little to do with the actual tradition we are fortunate enough to be receiving?
:good:

The substitution of one's personal ideas for those of respected teachers is, sadly, all too popular these days...

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:17 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:09 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm
Pick your teacher, Dudjom rinpoche, Dilgo khyentse rinpoche, Sakya trinzin rinpoche, Penor rinpoche, Minling trichen rinpoche, Namkha drimed rinpoche, Taklung tsetrul rinpoche, Tulku urgyen rinpoche, Thinley norbu rinpoche, 16th gyalwang karmapa..

They are all extremely clear about this in their teaching, so I don't get why people are still going on about their own personal views which seem to have very little to do with the actual tradition we are fortunate enough to be receiving?
:good:

The substitution of one's personal ideas for those of respected teachers is, sadly, all too popular these days...
You know, there are other forms of Buddhism to practice if you don't like the Vajrayana tradition.

It's absolutely unnecessary to cast aspersions on this tried and true authentic tradition, and the followers of it.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:33 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:17 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:09 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm
Pick your teacher, Dudjom rinpoche, Dilgo khyentse rinpoche, Sakya trinzin rinpoche, Penor rinpoche, Minling trichen rinpoche, Namkha drimed rinpoche, Taklung tsetrul rinpoche, Tulku urgyen rinpoche, Thinley norbu rinpoche, 16th gyalwang karmapa..

They are all extremely clear about this in their teaching, so I don't get why people are still going on about their own personal views which seem to have very little to do with the actual tradition we are fortunate enough to be receiving?
:good:

The substitution of one's personal ideas for those of respected teachers is, sadly, all too popular these days...
You know, there are other forms of Buddhism to practice if you don't like the Vajrayana tradition.

It's absolutely unnecessary to cast aspersions on this tried and true authentic tradition, and the followers of it.
How exactly was I casting aspersions on the vajrayana and its followers - did you misread my comment?

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Re: Reincarnation of H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:05 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:33 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:17 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:09 am


:good:

The substitution of one's personal ideas for those of respected teachers is, sadly, all too popular these days...
You know, there are other forms of Buddhism to practice if you don't like the Vajrayana tradition.

It's absolutely unnecessary to cast aspersions on this tried and true authentic tradition, and the followers of it.
How exactly was I casting aspersions on the vajrayana and its followers - did you misread my comment?
Sorry I misread your comment in opposite order, but I'm unable to delete my previous post, if a Mod can delete it, thank you.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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