Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

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KiwiNFLFan
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Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by KiwiNFLFan » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:23 am

Yesterday I came across this article by Lama Zopa Rinpoche where he states that if you can recite 5 malas of the Medicine Buddha mantra every day, then you'll purify your bad karma and never be reborn in the lower realms.

However, in the Samyutta Nikaya of the Pali Canon (6:9), it states:
For more than two quinquadecillion years,
and another five quattuordecillion years,
a slanderer of noble ones goes to hell,
having aimed bad words and thoughts at them.” (Sujato translation)
I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, and used to consider Buddhism (and every other non-Christian religion) to be a false religion. I can't remember if I spoke against the Buddha or Buddhism though.

If someone has slandered the Buddhas, yet they are sincerely sorry, have become a Buddhist and chant 5 malas of the Medicine Buddha mantra every day, will the bad karma still be erased? What about reading, listening to or reciting the Ārya Saṅghāṭa Sūtra?

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:28 am

It’s pretty clear, according to the info you’ve given here.

If you slander the Buddha, you go to the hell-realms for a long time.

If you recite Five Malas of the Medicine Buddha, you can undo said negative karma.

Maybe it depends also on what level of Dharma teachings you have received in this lifetime too.
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Simon E.
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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:34 am

You can’t slander the Buddha. You can say stuff from an afflicted mind, but that’s mostly like farting into the cosmos.
Remember vipaka results from intention and when most yet -to -be -Buddhists talk about Dharma they have no clear or formed intention.

Put something in the collection bowl of your local Dharma centre and go in peace.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:45 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:34 am
You can’t slander the Buddha. You can say stuff from an afflicted mind, but that’s mostly like farting into the cosmos.
Remember vipaka results from intention and when most yet -to -be -Buddhists talk about Dharma they have no clear or formed intention.

Put something in the collection bowl of your local Dharma centre and go in peace.
This is good advice :twothumbsup: I also like "farting into the cosmos".
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:56 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:28 am
Maybe it depends also on what level of Dharma teachings you have received in this lifetime too.

In other words, if you’ve received Buddhadharma teachings other than Sutrayana or outer Tantra; then maybe you should do something more than Five Malas of Medicine Buddha, or maybe you need to do less than that.

The context here would depend on what you have received, and your capacity.
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Lingpupa » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:20 am

Buddhist literature, like most Indian literature, like most literature at all really, uses hyperbole as a regular technique. If you take it too literally (which can never have been the authors' intention) you end up with conflicting nonsense.
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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by KiwiNFLFan » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:44 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:56 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:28 am
Maybe it depends also on what level of Dharma teachings you have received in this lifetime too.

In other words, if you’ve received Buddhadharma teachings other than Sutrayana or outer Tantra; then maybe you should do something more than Five Malas of Medicine Buddha, or maybe you need to do less than that.

The context here would depend on what you have received, and your capacity.
I have not received any Tantric teachings or empowerments: I have simply taken refuge and precepts (and that was at a Thai temple).

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:05 am

Lingpupa wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:20 am
Buddhist literature, like most Indian literature, like most literature at all really, uses hyperbole as a regular technique. If you take it too literally (which can never have been the authors' intention) you end up with conflicting nonsense.
Aye...

It makes no sense to liberate yourself from Hellfire Evangelical religion only to adopt the literalist folk religion of another time and place.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:05 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:20 am
Buddhist literature, like most Indian literature, like most literature at all really, uses hyperbole as a regular technique. If you take it too literally (which can never have been the authors' intention) you end up with conflicting nonsense.
Sure, but that being said -- if you don't work to get enlightened you're going to spend a long long time wandering in samsara, and you'll definitely spend very many very long lives in hell.

So if you're slandering the Buddha and/or his teachings, obviously you're not living and practicing in a way that get you out of samsara. Even if you practice great morality and perfect your concentration and get into a heavenly realm in the next life -- that's essentially a 1 way ticket to hell because generally that's where you end up after burning up all your good karma in the heavens. Then after your very long stay in hell, you're back spinning around in samsara, and who knows how many lifetimes it will take before you come in contact with the dharma again.

So while no one's punishing you for slandering the Buddha and his teachings, the way samsara works will definitely result in a long time in hell. Samsara sucks.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by tkp67 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:50 pm

The same warnings lie within my tradition. It seems to speak to the dynamic that if you harbor negativity towards the buddha your mind will repel and reject the teachings. The fact that you are able to discuss them, contemplate them and ask about this dynamic would lead to the assumption that your karma has been righted in regards to rectifying the slander. The founder of the tradition I practice comments to a similar dynamic.

At some point the potential Buddha nature these teachings speaks about is one's own and slander is denying that nature in ourselves. This is a huge impediment and these warnings may be dire to illustrate as much.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:13 pm

KiwiNFLFan wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:23 am
Yesterday I came across this article by Lama Zopa Rinpoche where he states that if you can recite 5 malas of the Medicine Buddha mantra every day, then you'll purify your bad karma and never be reborn in the lower realms.

However, in the Samyutta Nikaya of the Pali Canon (6:9), it states:
For more than two quinquadecillion years,
and another five quattuordecillion years,
a slanderer of noble ones goes to hell,
having aimed bad words and thoughts at them.” (Sujato translation)
I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, and used to consider Buddhism (and every other non-Christian religion) to be a false religion. I can't remember if I spoke against the Buddha or Buddhism though.

If someone has slandered the Buddhas, yet they are sincerely sorry, have become a Buddhist and chant 5 malas of the Medicine Buddha mantra every day, will the bad karma still be erased? What about reading, listening to or reciting the Ārya Saṅghāṭa Sūtra?






Before we all get too hysterical and start consigning people we don’t know to hell on the back of translations of writings of unspecified provenance or on the say so of unnamed teachers it might be a good idea the read the OP.
This person is worried that they MAY have said negative things about Buddhism BEFORE THEY WERE A BUDDHIST
This person has then asked for reassurance and has been told by two supposedly compassionate Buddhists that hell is a possibility, this is fundamentalist and in any case shows a misunderstanding of the issue as outlined by the poster.
Let’s not swap a Christian fundie attitude for a Buddhist one.











S
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by tkp67 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:13 pm
Before we all get too hysterical and start consigning people we don’t know to hell on the back of translations of writings of unspecified provenance or on the say so of unnamed teachers it might be a good idea the read the OP.
This person is worried that they MAY have said negative things about Buddhism BEFORE THEY WERE A BUDDHIST
This person has then asked for reassurance and has been told by two supposedly compassionate Buddhists that hell is a possibility, this is fundamentalist and in any case shows a misunderstanding of the issue as outlined by the poster.
Let’s not swap a Christian fundie attitude for a Buddhist one.
I am really sorry I did not see this was a post in tibetan buddhism and thought it was in open dharma, I really didn't mean to violate your space.

I stand corrected for trying to bring in a comparative teaching and will remove the offence in response

thanks for the correction (I tried to edit it, I cannot. If deemed as offensive I would appreciate removal regardless I take ownership of my indiscretion.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:31 pm

I wasn’t responding to your point at all. My reply was nothing to do with which sub forum the thread appeared in. I was pointing out that some posters had not read the OP or had not noticed the fact the the poster was talking about events BEFORE they identified as a Buddhist.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by tkp67 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:35 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:31 pm
I wasn’t responding to your point at all. My reply was nothing to do with which sub forum the thread appeared in. I was pointing out that some posters had not read the OP or had not noticed the fact the the poster was talking about events BEFORE they identified as a Buddhist.
Still you reminded me I was translating a non tibetan tradition and I did that before and it caused some headaches and I am trying to be mindfully respectful of the virtues I believe I should exude.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify the point.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by pemachophel » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:28 pm

It is said that the one good thing about bad karma is that it can be purified. In Vajrayana, all bad karma can be purified, including the five sins of immediate consequence (which would otherwise take you to Hell as soon as you die without even entering the bardo).

The key to purifying any and all bad karma is making sincere, heart-felt use of the Four Powers. One of the Four Powers is method. So, within both sutric and Vajrayana Buddhism, there are many mantras and dharanis for purifying even the most heinous of sins. Either use the one your Teacher has specified or pick the one you have the most faith in. Do the practice, get the result, and don't commit that sin again. Voila.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Terma » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:22 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:28 pm
It is said that the one good thing about bad karma is that it can be purified. In Vajrayana, all bad karma can be purified, including the five sins of immediate consequence (which would otherwise take you to Hell as soon as you die without even entering the bardo).

The key to purifying any and all bad karma is making sincere, heart-felt use of the Four Powers. One of the Four Powers is method. So, within both sutric and Vajrayana Buddhism, there are many mantras and dharanis for purifying even the most heinous of sins. Either use the one your Teacher has specified or pick the one you have the most faith in. Do the practice, get the result, and don't commit that sin again. Voila.
:good:

One of the reason's why the Vajrayana is so amazing!

But I believe the OP said that he did not practice Vajrayana at this point. In this case for the to e being here is my suggestion based in what I was told in a teaching. Although it is not a direct remedy to this particular situation I think that it may be helpful.

Not sure how to get the idea across eloquently, but I think most of our karma is accumulated as a result of habits and so forth. So having said that, one aspect of "righting a wrong" could be to create and foster a positive habit to combat the negative one.

In this case, my suggestion would be to make it a point daily to take a few minutes and think about all the amazing qualities of the Buddha and what he taught in order to develop even stronger devotion towards the buddhadharma. I really think this is helpful for everyone. We may often do our practice and take refuge in a bit of a hurry, especially on a busy day but if you think about it, this alone is an amazing practice that can help set the motivation for everything that follows.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by pemachophel » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:36 pm

Terma,

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Actually, the Four Powers come from a sutra. They are not, strictly speaking, Vajrayana in essence. However, in this sutra, they are known as the Four Dharmas.

The Sutra of the Exalted Teaching on the Four Dharmas

Gya-gar ked-du: Arya Chatur Dharma Nirdhesha Nama Mahayana Sutra
Bod ked-du: Phak-pa Cho-zhi Ten-pa Zhe-ja-wa Theg-pa Chen-poi Do

I prostrate to all the Buddhas and Bodhisatvas.

Thus once have I heard:

The Bhagawan was residing in the assembly place of the Gods known as Excellent Dharma within the Heaven of the 33 along with a great assembly of 500 monks and an immensely great many Bodhisatvas [and] Mahasatvas, including Maitreya and Manjushri. Thereupon, the Bhagawan granted teaching to the Bodhisatva, Mahasatva Maitreya [saying]:

“Maitreya, if a Bodhisatva [or] Mahasatva has four Dharmas, He [or She] will vanquish non-virtuous actions that have been performed and accumulated. What are these four? They are as follows: the power of full application of strong remorse, the power of full application of the antidote, the power of restoration, [and] the power of the support.

“In terms of this, full application of strong remorse [means having] much regret for having engaged in [whatever] non-virtuous action [has been done]. In terms of this, the full application of the antidote [means having] strong, vigorous diligence in [performing] virtuous actions immediately after having engaged in non-virtuous actions. In terms of this, the power of restoration [means developing] unbreakable restraint by means of sincerely making a vow [not to perform that non-virtuous action ever again]. In terms of this, the power of the support [means] going for refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha and not giving up Bodhicitta. If one has these [four] powers, the destructive power [of non-virtuous deeds] cannot prevail. Maitreya, if a Bodhisatva [or] Mahasatva has these four Dharmas, he [or she] will vanquish whatever non-virtuous actions have been performed and accumulated. Bodhisatvas [and] Mahasatvas should continuously [and] copiously read, recite, think about, meditate on, and practice this sutra. In this way, the fruit of non-virtuous actions will not be able to appear.”

When the Bhagawan had said this, the Bodhisatva, Mahasatva Maitreya, those monks, those Bodhisatvas, those children of the Gods, such as Indra, and the entire assembly rejoiced and praised the words spoken by the Bhagawan.

[Thus] the Mahayana Sutra known as the Exalted
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Dharmaswede » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:31 pm

Karma is anything but straight forward. It is based on several factors, such as your understanding of the act or issue. I imagine it was quite limited when you were a Christian. Also, intention is important. If you don't remember doing it but happened to have done it, you probably did it casually. Furthermore, the weight of the karma is also dependent on how you feel about it now. You are not exactly basking in it.

I am no expert on Karma, but I see again and again how it freaks out Western students – including myself – who are practicing sincerely, but who also happen to be very human indeed.

Be happy, practice with joy and an open heart. You have made a very precious connection. ALL of us here have bad karma to purify, you are no worse than anyone else. Your practice will purify bad karma and increase your merit. If you want to, you can spend some time on a practice that specifically aims to purity bad karma such as Vajrasattva.

When you practice compassion with all sentient beings, don't forget to include yourself.

I sincerely rejoice in your amazing karma that has lead you to connect with the Dharma.

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Re: Can bad karma from slander of the Buddha be erased through sadhana?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:33 pm

:good:
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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