Non duality.

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Mariusz
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Mariusz » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:06 am

Hanzze wrote: Dear Mariusz,

first, thanks of getting knowing of Santideva and the expressions in Bodhicaryaavatara. As the point of discussion was middle path as one interpretation of non duality, and your point: not all Tibetans appreciate the middle way, this explaining could be useful. Otherwise some could believe that some traditions do not see the middle path in its perfection as non-duality. If so it could be that the middle path would be useless.
I guess there is no dissertation needed, just a view words would make it clear, I guess.
BTW my focus was not the middle path but the peace. If you want directly, please check online http://www.scribd.com/doc/34036026/The- ... Brunnholzl page 670-674. I think there are so many interpretations on the middle path as the traditions, according to one's own skills but without rejecting the other, for example the Never Returner or the realization of the Three Kayas.

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Hanzze
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Hanzze » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:32 pm

Dear Mariusz,

I would wonder if there is any Buddha Dharma tradition which does not see peace and also the middle path as the resource of non-duality. It is out of my understanding, if there would be a different in its qualities in peace, middle path, non-duality. Form me it looks strange, if somebody does not seek of peace or the middle path to actually reach non-duality. Of course, there might be parts on the way, that one does not seems as parts on the way but that does not mean that the path is not necessary. Not seen it a way to the middle or to peace, does not reject it. It would be a misunderstanding or a misinterpretation, I guess.
Mostly it is only a misunderstanding of my person.

Oh, thanks for the link and the thinks you pointed on page 670-674 but they have less to do with the topic and could give me any idea of your opinion about peace, middle path and non duality, except that it might be a believe that Dharma can be different.

(Maybe it is useful for you to let you know that the forest monk used to study both and that the forest tradition especial in Cambodia and parts on Thailand has very much similarity to Tibetan and Mahayana Traditions (even they are not much known today), does that make you more open and let Tradition discrimination not be part of the actual discussion.)
Just that! :-)

Mariusz
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Mariusz » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:38 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear Mariusz,

I would wonder if there is any Buddha Dharma tradition which does not see peace and also the middle path as the resource of non-duality. It is out of my understanding, if there would be a different in its qualities in peace, middle path, non-duality. Form me it looks strange, if somebody does not seek of peace or the middle path to actually reach non-duality. Of course, there might be parts on the way, that one does not seems as parts on the way but that does not mean that the path is not necessary. Not seen it a way to the middle or to peace, does not reject it. It would be a misunderstanding or a misinterpretation, I guess.
Mostly it is only a misunderstanding of my person.

Oh, thanks for the link and the thinks you pointed on page 670-674 but they have less to do with the topic and could give me any idea of your opinion about peace, middle path and non duality, except that it might be a believe that Dharma can be different.

(Maybe it is useful for you to let you know that the forest monk used to study both and that the forest tradition especial in Cambodia and parts on Thailand has very much similarity to Tibetan and Mahayana Traditions (even they are not much known today), does that make you more open and let Tradition discrimination not be part of the actual discussion.)
Dear Hanzze,
It does not look strange. Non-duality is not the "alfa and omega" in Buddhism. As I understand the duality is thoroughly cutting through by non-self realization. But there are aslo many other realizations to cross over until the final the Three Kayas. Of course this is only the theory, who knows what the Never Returner from its "the middle path" really tasted until it is realized by it's own, not to mention to "having" the Three Kayas? Check for example Dzogchen theory. Non-duality here take place only because of the third Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa). The before are even the more subtle Unenlightenments such firstly not "thoroughly cutting through" (trekcho) to primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) and such secondly not "crossing over" (thogal) to spontaneously accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub). "The third Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) causes the arising of the (dualistic) Mind (Wyl. Sems) that apprehends the Appearances of the Basis (in forms of the five lights of five wisdoms and the buddha-bodies) as other than an apprehender with their final transformation into the five elements (space, wind, fire, water, earth) of Samsara until one take a rebirth in one of the six realms according to the process of 12 links of Dependent Origination."

Mahayana focusses on all aspects preventing the Omniscience, not only the non-duality.

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:55 pm

All projections of minds' mirror cannot turn into conceptual solid creations by coarse thoughts like the Buddha saw the disturbing ones weren't so other than conceptual drawing about only was the disturbation.
No fabricated split in the whole created by craving to object. Mind is not just in the brain, if it was, mind could run around there, we should see inside.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:16 pm

By dualism the qualities of others are seen through own veils.
Others, things, thoughts, emotions, "experiences arise in mind but they are neither mind nor anything but mind". (Longchenpa)
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:36 pm

All actions become total altruistic when subject-object mental fixations are destroyed. Can be important to add, to undo confusion of a merely inactive abiding.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:18 pm

Non-duality is very boring and easily becomes a deviation.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:Non-duality is very boring and easily becomes a deviation.
Very boring.

Student: Rinpoche, is buddha nature an actualization of nonduality?

Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche: Yes. They are same thing. Exactly same thing. Very good question.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Silent Bob
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Silent Bob » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:20 pm

muni wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Non-duality is very boring and easily becomes a deviation.
Very boring.

Student: Rinpoche, is buddha nature an actualization of nonduality?

Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche: Yes. They are same thing. Exactly same thing. Very good question.

Namdrol, your assertion is puzzling to say the least, and one which is at odds with my own experience. With all due respect, sir, I just don't get it.

Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:52 pm

Silent Bob wrote:
muni wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Non-duality is very boring and easily becomes a deviation.
Very boring.

Student: Rinpoche, is buddha nature an actualization of nonduality?

Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche: Yes. They are same thing. Exactly same thing. Very good question.

Namdrol, your assertion is puzzling to say the least, and one which is at odds with my own experience. With all due respect, sir, I just don't get it.

Chris
With respect to you Chris.

Even "Namdrol" has right as well, since Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche said joking that enlightenment is boring as nothing is surprising anymore.
Then this sentence is better: "... since they divide these (Space and Awareness) into two, they fall into deviation.
If these two do not become one without any duality, you will certainly not attain Buddhahood". Guru Rinpoche.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:05 pm

Silent Bob wrote:
muni wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Non-duality is very boring and easily becomes a deviation.
Very boring.

Student: Rinpoche, is buddha nature an actualization of nonduality?

Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche: Yes. They are same thing. Exactly same thing. Very good question.

Namdrol, your assertion is puzzling to say the least, and one which is at odds with my own experience. With all due respect, sir, I just don't get it.

Chris

According to the dzogchen tantras, a non-dual equipoise can easily lead to a deviation into a non-buddhist nihilistic view since there is a possibility of slipping into a meditative absorption of cessation.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:11 pm

There is no any slipping in correct understanding! There is no any possibility to understand Dzogchen when we see it as wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theawakenedeye.com/view.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; just two websides I clicked on.

also the sentence of Guru Rinpoche as well is from a Dzogchen text.

Longchenpa about teaching Dzogchen: " Nothing can ever escape it; it is all-embracing. It is the unitary wholeness of pure mind; it is a nondual totality".

In this way when a fortunate one understands, there is no prefered buddhism possible to suit ego and reject others than in ones own poisoned delusion.

There is only all embracing compassion, spontaneous nature.

If not important, lets feed samsara with our foolish attachment-aversion preferences.
Rinpoche his message is not for nothing.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:41 pm

muni wrote:There is no any slipping in correct understanding! There is no any possibility to understand Dzogchen when we see it as wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theawakenedeye.com/view.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; just two websides I clicked on.

Right, there is a certain trend in Dzogchen tantras which regard these definitions as incomplete, and which warn that without supplementary understandings, a practitioners can err into cessation since the extreme of clarity is cessation.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Non duality.

Post by DGA » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:49 pm

Hold on. What are we talking about in this thread when we talk about "nonduality"? Buddhahood or Buddha-nature? Emptiness? "Great Madhyamika" as Dolpopa understood it or the Middle Way in Chih-i's terms (apropos of the comments on the middle way earlier on...)? cessation? Rigpa? anatta? Boredom?

Nonduality is usually understood as a way to compare different religious or mystical traditions in one trope (nonduality in Vedanta, in Buddhism, in Sufism, &c). So it's a term that is very loosely staked out semantically. It can map out on a few things in Buddhist theory, or none of them, and nothing perfectly.

I'd like to know what is meant by 'nonduality' to those who use the concept and those who do not. I'm assuming I'm not the only one out in the weeds on this one.

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:There is no any slipping in correct understanding! There is no any possibility to understand Dzogchen when we see it as wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theawakenedeye.com/view.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; just two websides I clicked on.

Right, there is a certain trend in Dzogchen tantras which regard these definitions as incomplete, and which warn that without supplementary understandings, a practitioners can err into cessation since the extreme of clarity is cessation.
What supplimentary understanding than the transmission right from the Vajraheart?
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:07 pm

Jikan wrote:Hold on. What are we talking about in this thread when we talk about "nonduality"? Buddhahood or Buddha-nature? Emptiness? "Great Madhyamika" as Dolpopa understood it or the Middle Way in Chih-i's terms (apropos of the comments on the middle way earlier on...)? cessation? Rigpa? anatta? Boredom?

Nonduality is usually understood as a way to compare different religious or mystical traditions in one trope (nonduality in Vedanta, in Buddhism, in Sufism, &c). So it's a term that is very loosely staked out semantically. It can map out on a few things in Buddhist theory, or none of them, and nothing perfectly.

I'd like to know what is meant by 'nonduality' to those who use the concept and those who do not. I'm assuming I'm not the only one out in the weeds on this one.

I am pointing out that there exists a little known criticism of non-dual equipoise i.e. one in which there is no perception of subject and object, in Dzogchen teachings, which, it is asserted can cause one to slip into nirodha-sampatti, and thence, into a annihilationist view.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Non duality.

Post by kirtu » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:Non-duality is very boring and easily becomes a deviation.
:shrug:

Duality makes us yell at people (well, if like me you have this tendency).

Experienced nonduality with enlightened mind transforms all that. As you have pointed out in eSangha that only actually happens during meditation (and shortly after in my experience) - but can also arise at least conceptually off session.

So have I missed something here?

:coffee:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

muni
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Re: Non duality.

Post by muni » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:11 pm

Jikan wrote:Hold on. What are we talking about in this thread when we talk about "nonduality"? Buddhahood or Buddha-nature? Emptiness? "Great Madhyamika" as Dolpopa understood it or the Middle Way in Chih-i's terms (apropos of the comments on the middle way earlier on...)? cessation? Rigpa? anatta? Boredom?

Nonduality is usually understood as a way to compare different religious or mystical traditions in one trope (nonduality in Vedanta, in Buddhism, in Sufism, &c). So it's a term that is very loosely staked out semantically. It can map out on a few things in Buddhist theory, or none of them, and nothing perfectly.

I'd like to know what is meant by 'nonduality' to those who use the concept and those who do not. I'm assuming I'm not the only one out in the weeds on this one.
Emptiness is nondual. I write here Longchenpas' words which are of course only offering a light on it. "Appaerances, experiences" may arise in mind but they are neither mind nor anything but mind".

http://goosebumps4all.net/justdzongsar/tag/nonduality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Malcolm
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Re: Non duality.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:12 pm

muni wrote:
Jikan wrote:Hold on. What are we talking about in this thread when we talk about "nonduality"? Buddhahood or Buddha-nature? Emptiness? "Great Madhyamika" as Dolpopa understood it or the Middle Way in Chih-i's terms (apropos of the comments on the middle way earlier on...)? cessation? Rigpa? anatta? Boredom?

Nonduality is usually understood as a way to compare different religious or mystical traditions in one trope (nonduality in Vedanta, in Buddhism, in Sufism, &c). So it's a term that is very loosely staked out semantically. It can map out on a few things in Buddhist theory, or none of them, and nothing perfectly.

I'd like to know what is meant by 'nonduality' to those who use the concept and those who do not. I'm assuming I'm not the only one out in the weeds on this one.
Emptiness is nondual. I write here Longchenpas' words which are of course only offering a light on it. "Appaerances, experiences" may arise in mind but they are neither mind nor anything but mind".
Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Non duality.

Post by Adamantine » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:17 pm

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:
Yes, emptiness, the absence of the four extremes, is non-dual. But only trivially so.
SO what then is an example of a correct Buddhist view that is still dualistic? :shrug: Are you saying emptiness is trivially non-dualistic, but for the most part dualistic?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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