sang without transmission

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:09 am

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:49 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm


it was a bön practice.
So were prayer flags, and probably a bunch of stuff. I am not sure they this makes them non-Buddhist though.
Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
From Choegyal Namkhai Norbu's "Sang Offering and Serkyem of the Eight Classes", page 19:
For this practice one uses sang, or smoke, in particular the smoke that is obtained by burning cypress and other aromatic plants; sometimes three different plants are used, at other times, five. The purification with smoke is accompanied by purification of water an by the mantra of the five elements which we already know. This purification originated in the ancient Bön tradition and was introduced into the Buddhist tradition by Guru Padmasambhava.
since the 5 elements mantra is found in the Buddhist Tantras, here ChNN refers to the Sang offering practice.

pd: we all know ChNN was a renowned tibetologist and teacher of this at the University of Naples that published authoritative materials on tibetan culture and TB. I think that is sufficient from my part.

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heart
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:57 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:03 am
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:28 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm


it was a bön practice.
And so? Dzogchen is a Bön practice.

/magnus
Dzogchen has nothing to do with ancient Bön.
I trust ChNNR on this point and he didn't agree with you.
Anyway it doesn't matter because general Sang is an offering to the four guest so it is the same principle as Chod.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:02 am

heart wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:57 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:03 am
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:28 pm


And so? Dzogchen is a Bön practice.

/magnus
Dzogchen has nothing to do with ancient Bön.
I trust ChNNR on this point and he didn't agree with you.
Anyway it doesn't matter because general Sang is an offering to the four guest so it is the same principle as Chod.

/magnus
Shang-Shung Kingdom's religion system wasnt even ancient Bön. Bön is a later thing if i remember well. but i realy don't care.

it doesn't matter what we believe, we can't change history.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:16 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:02 am
heart wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:57 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:03 am


Dzogchen has nothing to do with ancient Bön.
I trust ChNNR on this point and he didn't agree with you.
Anyway it doesn't matter because general Sang is an offering to the four guest so it is the same principle as Chod.

/magnus
Shang-Shung Kingdom's religion system wasnt even ancient Bön. Bön is a later thing if i remember well. but i realy don't care.

it doesn't matter what we believe, we can't change history.
Ancient Bon is Shang-Shung. Anyway history have nothing to do with your arguments. Sang is something very helpful for Dharma practitioners and that is why Guru Rinpoche adopted it.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Tata1 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:17 am

If you really dont care then why make those statements?

Are we going to ignore pemachopels post?

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Tata1 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:24 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm
Can one do sang without transmission?

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.

Well i guess that depends of you consider the roots of sang making smoke or if you consider them to be boddhicitta, offering to the four guests, wisdom ..etc

If its the latter then definitly buddhist roots.

And Chnn definitly acknowledges dzogchen bompo linage and event taught some

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:54 am

Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:17 am
If you really dont care then why make those statements?

Are we going to ignore pemachopels post?
i just don't want people to swallow things, that isn't the Buddhist way of doing things at all.

And of course not, Lama Pema's advice has proven to be wise each time i have asked him for it. And btw i did not contradict him since he adviced our friend here to do another practice or get the respective lung for the correspondant tantric practice of interest.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:58 am

Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:24 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm
Can one do sang without transmission?

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.

Well i guess that depends of you consider the roots of sang making smoke or if you consider them to be boddhicitta, offering to the four guests, wisdom ..etc

If its the latter then definitly buddhist roots.

And Chnn definitly acknowledges dzogchen bompo linage and event taught some
As i quoted ChNN in a prior post: Sang has Bön root, not Buddhist; it was incorpored into Buddhism by GP.

And as i also wrote, ancient Bön has nothing to do with Dzogchen Atiyoga. Modern Bön apparently has. According to ChNN ancient Bön and modern Bön are not the same thing at all.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Tata1 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:14 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:54 am
Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:17 am
If you really dont care then why make those statements?

Are we going to ignore pemachopels post?
i just don't want people to swallow things, that isn't the Buddhist way of doing things at all.

And of course not, Lama Pema's advice has proven to be wise each time i have asked him for it. And btw i did not contradict him since he adviced our friend here to do another practice or get the respective lung for the correspondant tantric practice of interest.
You say that you dont want people swallow things but you base your position only on a quoate by Chnn without adressing the reasoning that me and others have posted.

Im talking about pemachopels statement about tulku sang nag

Tata1
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Tata1 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:18 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:58 am
Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:24 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm



Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.

Well i guess that depends of you consider the roots of sang making smoke or if you consider them to be boddhicitta, offering to the four guests, wisdom ..etc

If its the latter then definitly buddhist roots.

And Chnn definitly acknowledges dzogchen bompo linage and event taught some
As i quoted ChNN in a prior post: Sang has Bön root, not Buddhist; it was incorpored into Buddhism by GP.

And as i also wrote, ancient Bön has nothing to do with Dzogchen Atiyoga. Modern Bön apparently has. According to ChNN ancient Bön and modern Bön are not the same thing at all.
You should be more carefull when puting statements in chnn mouth.
Yes namkhai norbu says that modern bon is heavily influenced by tantric buddhism.

He also say that there is pre Buddhist dzogchen from bon linage that is less elaborate than buddhist dzogchen and that it survived in the form of small upadeshas. He taught this as he received it from tendzin namdak if im not mistaken.

Its not hard to find in DC material

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Vasana
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Vasana » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:54 am

This thread could really do with some sang 8-)
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:37 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:09 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:49 pm


So were prayer flags, and probably a bunch of stuff. I am not sure they this makes them non-Buddhist though.
Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
From Choegyal Namkhai Norbu's "Sang Offering and Serkyem of the Eight Classes", page 19:
For this practice one uses sang, or smoke, in particular the smoke that is obtained by burning cypress and other aromatic plants; sometimes three different plants are used, at other times, five. The purification with smoke is accompanied by purification of water an by the mantra of the five elements which we already know. This purification originated in the ancient Bön tradition and was introduced into the Buddhist tradition by Guru Padmasambhava.
since the 5 elements mantra is found in the Buddhist Tantras, here ChNN refers to the Sang offering practice.

pd: we all know ChNN was a renowned tibetologist and teacher of this at the University of Naples that published authoritative materials on tibetan culture and TB. I think that is sufficient from my part.
Yes, but to me it seems he was referring to SangCHOD, as opposed to claiming all incense offerings originated with them.
He is indeed authoritative as a source, but not always clear, and we all occasionally had to ask for clarification - sadly no longer available to us.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:47 pm

Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:14 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:54 am
Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:17 am
If you really dont care then why make those statements?

Are we going to ignore pemachopels post?
i just don't want people to swallow things, that isn't the Buddhist way of doing things at all.

And of course not, Lama Pema's advice has proven to be wise each time i have asked him for it. And btw i did not contradict him since he adviced our friend here to do another practice or get the respective lung for the correspondant tantric practice of interest.
You say that you dont want people swallow things but you base your position only on a quoate by Chnn without adressing the reasoning that me and others have posted.

Im talking about pemachopels statement about tulku sang nag
i think i was pretty clear: people involved should get the lung or do another thing.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:48 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:37 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:09 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm

Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
From Choegyal Namkhai Norbu's "Sang Offering and Serkyem of the Eight Classes", page 19:
For this practice one uses sang, or smoke, in particular the smoke that is obtained by burning cypress and other aromatic plants; sometimes three different plants are used, at other times, five. The purification with smoke is accompanied by purification of water an by the mantra of the five elements which we already know. This purification originated in the ancient Bön tradition and was introduced into the Buddhist tradition by Guru Padmasambhava.
since the 5 elements mantra is found in the Buddhist Tantras, here ChNN refers to the Sang offering practice.

pd: we all know ChNN was a renowned tibetologist and teacher of this at the University of Naples that published authoritative materials on tibetan culture and TB. I think that is sufficient from my part.
Yes, but to me it seems he was referring to SangCHOD, as opposed to claiming all incense offerings originated with them.
He is indeed authoritative as a source, but not always clear, and we all occasionally had to ask for clarification - sadly no longer available to us.
Man, read the book, or at least the page i quoted.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:53 pm

Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:18 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:58 am
Tata1 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:24 am



Well i guess that depends of you consider the roots of sang making smoke or if you consider them to be boddhicitta, offering to the four guests, wisdom ..etc

If its the latter then definitly buddhist roots.

And Chnn definitly acknowledges dzogchen bompo linage and event taught some
As i quoted ChNN in a prior post: Sang has Bön root, not Buddhist; it was incorpored into Buddhism by GP.

And as i also wrote, ancient Bön has nothing to do with Dzogchen Atiyoga. Modern Bön apparently has. According to ChNN ancient Bön and modern Bön are not the same thing at all.
You should be more carefull when puting statements in chnn mouth.
Yes namkhai norbu says that modern bon is heavily influenced by tantric buddhism.

He also say that there is pre Buddhist dzogchen from bon linage that is less elaborate than buddhist dzogchen and that it survived in the form of small upadeshas. He taught this as he received it from tendzin namdak if im not mistaken.

Its not hard to find in DC material
No, ChNN said that Sang was incorporated into Tantric Buddhism by Guru Padmasambhava. Probably as a mean to satisfy the locals.

I don't care much about ancient-Bön dzogchen, Bön weren't on the lineage before GP, Vimalamitra and Vairoccana introduced Garab Dorje's Atiyoga into Tibet. In thi regard, if you look well, Sherab Miwo is a myth as much as Gesar.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:33 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm


it depends. if you want a particular TB sang practice, you should ask a TB teacher.

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.
Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.
A
The Sang practice that we do in Buddhism is coming from Guru Rinpoche.

Yes the Bonpos might have had their own practice of Sang, however it entered into Buddhism through the enlightened activities of Guru Rinpoche, and if Guru Rinpoche isn't a Buddhist, then I don't know who is.

It is like the traditional offerings we do, just because Hindus also offer Lamps doesn't mean when enlightened masters taught Light offerings they are not Buddhist.

The King had become ill due to obscuration (drip) because a queen of his had an affair with a minister, she became pregnant and aborted the baby and hid the body which was in an area that disturbed a powerful spirit.

The King became very ill, and no one had been able to cure him (I believe this included attempts by Bonpo priests) , so he pleaded with Guru Rinpoche, Guru Rinpoche told him that he would tell him the source of his illness if he promised not to punish the individual. So, he told him, and taught him the practice of Sang, which completely healed him.

So we as Buddhists practice Sang, because Guru Rinpoche has introduced the practice. "Guru Rinpoche sang" I believe is this particular sang.

Of course other Sang practices such as Riwo Sang Cho are Terma, and I hope you certainly aren't implying that a Terma doesn't have a Buddhist root.

as Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said ( a current rebirth of the Terton Lhatsun namkha jigme who revealed the Riwo sang cho) that the language of Riwo Sang Cho is thoroughly Dzogpachenpo.

Also, Khenpo Shenga has a commentary on the Sang which reads as a philosophical commentary on the dharma, so to say Sang has no roots in Buddhism is thoroughly absurd.

Sang practice has Refuge, Bodhichitta, the offerings to the Three jewels and Buddha's are specifically mentioned, and in the section post om ah hung there is a specific confession related to our Buddhist vows, and Tantric Samayas.

It is one of the most crucial practices in the Vajrayana tradition, and Dudjom Rinpoche recommended doing sang daily, and This master too has composed Sang liturgies in addition to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, and many others.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:08 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:33 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am


Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.
A
The Sang practice that we do in Buddhism is coming from Guru Rinpoche.

Yes the Bonpos might have had their own practice of Sang, however it entered into Buddhism through the enlightened activities of Guru Rinpoche, and if Guru Rinpoche isn't a Buddhist, then I don't know who is.

It is like the traditional offerings we do, just because Hindus also offer Lamps doesn't mean when enlightened masters taught Light offerings they are not Buddhist.

The King had become ill due to obscuration (drip) because a queen of his had an affair with a minister, she became pregnant and aborted the baby and hid the body which was in an area that disturbed a powerful spirit.

The King became very ill, and no one had been able to cure him (I believe this included attempts by Bonpo priests) , so he pleaded with Guru Rinpoche, Guru Rinpoche told him that he would tell him the source of his illness if he promised not to punish the individual. So, he told him, and taught him the practice of Sang, which completely healed him.

So we as Buddhists practice Sang, because Guru Rinpoche has introduced the practice. "Guru Rinpoche sang" I believe is this particular sang.

Of course other Sang practices such as Riwo Sang Cho are Terma, and I hope you certainly aren't implying that a Terma doesn't have a Buddhist root.

as Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said ( a current rebirth of the Terton Lhatsun namkha jigme who revealed the Riwo sang cho) that the language of Riwo Sang Cho is thoroughly Dzogpachenpo.

Also, Khenpo Shenga has a commentary on the Sang which reads as a philosophical commentary on the dharma, so to say Sang has no roots in Buddhism is thoroughly absurd.

Sang practice has Refuge, Bodhichitta, the offerings to the Three jewels and Buddha's are specifically mentioned, and in the section post om ah hung there is a specific confession related to our Buddhist vows, and Tantric Samayas.

It is one of the most crucial practices in the Vajrayana tradition, and Dudjom Rinpoche recommended doing sang daily, and This master too has composed Sang liturgies in addition to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, and many others.
You need to read the thread.

btw is very interesting that no one is known to have attained liberation by mean of sang, is there any? afaik it is a practice for purifying the place owners and time owners.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:52 pm

btw, i also practice sang, regularly. lol, i have nothing against it.

maybe i wasn't kind enough to express myself.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:28 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:52 pm
btw, i also practice sang, regularly. lol, i have nothing against it.
So, why where you trolling?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:50 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:48 pm

Man, read the book, or at least the page i quoted.
You know, it is possible to read something and not agree about the interpretation.

The sadhana, i.e. 'this practice' uses the term 'Sangchod'. This is what is being referenced by ChNN in the booklet, not every use of incense offering.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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