Reincarnated Lamas

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TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by TrimePema » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:04 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:21 am
TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:43 pm
... OR one could see it as Shakyamuni Buddha being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened because He worked hard and followed the correct path.
There is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
that is the theravada view, isnt it? or are you distinguishing between arya reincarnations and sentient beings?

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:55 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:04 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:21 am
TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:43 pm
... OR one could see it as Shakyamuni Buddha being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened because He worked hard and followed the correct path.
There is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
that is the theravada view, isnt it? or are you distinguishing between arya reincarnations and sentient beings?
No, read my lips: there is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

smcj
Posts: 6948
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by smcj » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:01 am

heart wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:55 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:04 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:21 am


There is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
that is the theravada view, isnt it? or are you distinguishing between arya reincarnations and sentient beings?
No, read my lips: there is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
Umm...what?
I’m of the same understanding as TrimePema. Well, maybe you could omit the words “happened to”. But still a sentient being becomes an enlightened being.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Kaung
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:04 am
Location: Yangon Burma

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Kaung » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:48 am

TrimePema wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:04 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:21 am
TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:43 pm
... OR one could see it as Shakyamuni Buddha being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened because He worked hard and followed the correct path.
There is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
that is the theravada view, isnt it? or are you distinguishing between arya reincarnations and sentient beings?
Even in the Theravada,the Buddha was not an “ordinary” sentient being.

smcj
Posts: 6948
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by smcj » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:05 am

Even in the Theravada,the Buddha was not an “ordinary” sentient being.
Anyone hang out over at DhammaWheel? Sounds like a question for those guys.
~~~~~
He transitioned from an unenlightened human to a fully enlightened human, right? His status was just like we are now. I think the references to him as a “Bodhisatt” refers to his karmic trajectory and not to his realization of a bhumi.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Karma Shanga
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:33 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Karma Shanga » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:53 am

Hi,

the only dharma school which - from time to time--considers the Buddha as ordinary human being is Ch'an... and it's done exclusively in particular circumstances to be conducive to realization. It's not a philosophical stance.

Consider the hagiography of the Buddha (which is accepted by the theravada and many other schools) and you'll see that he was special even before he was born.

On a side note, I think that this Buddhist article may be relevant to this thread
https://www.lionsroar.com/dalai-lama-su ... on-system/
I think it's implicit that H. H. Dalai Lama no longer believes in the tulku system of reincarnated lamas.

Simon E.
Posts: 7434
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Simon E. » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:02 am

smcj wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:05 am
Even in the Theravada,the Buddha was not an “ordinary” sentient being.
Anyone hang out over at DhammaWheel? Sounds like a question for those guys.
~~~~~
He transitioned from an unenlightened human to a fully enlightened human, right? His status was just like we are now. I think the references to him as a “Bodhisatt” refers to his karmic trajectory and not to his realization of a bhumi.
No. The classical Theravadin position is that his Bodhisattva career occurred over multiple lifetimes.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:05 am

smcj wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:01 am
heart wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:55 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:04 pm


that is the theravada view, isnt it? or are you distinguishing between arya reincarnations and sentient beings?
No, read my lips: there is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
Umm...what?
I’m of the same understanding as TrimePema. Well, maybe you could omit the words “happened to”. But still a sentient being becomes an enlightened being.
The Jataka tales is a part of the Shravakayana scriptures, the Tripitaka. It describes the amazing things Shakyamuni did in previous lives, like offering his body to a starving tigress. Even if he wasn't enlightened a long time before he was born as Shakyamuni (the Mahayana view) he certainly was no ordinary human. His life as Shakyamuni was the end of an endless amount of lives accumulating the circumstances to be a Buddha. Only the Vajrayana say that it is possible to reach enlightenment in one life, and that is not the enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

smcj
Posts: 6948
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by smcj » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:53 am

The Jataka Tales establish his karmic trajectory. That’s different than having realized a bhumi.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:21 pm

smcj wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:53 am
The Jataka Tales establish his karmic trajectory. That’s different than having realized a bhumi.
Of course he did, but in Shravakayana they have a different set of Bhumis: https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Eight_bhumis

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

TrimePema
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by TrimePema » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:16 pm

either way, even Shakyamuni displayed the path for sentient beings. that's what arya beings and Buddhas do.

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