Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Knotty Veneer »

As many other have said above, the relationship between guru and student need not be a personal one in the way you describe. It does need to be formalized in some manner though - ideally through the receiving of an empowerment - but there are teachers of mine who I have not received empowerments from but have had group teachings and personal practice advice from in interviews who I view as gurus.

I think the important thing is that a teacher's example inspires you, that you respect them and that you help to further their activity by supporting them in whatever way you can in return for the formal teachings or informal example they give you. Also, you should view any other students of your teachers as Dharma brothers and sisters and be especially mindful in how you treat them. They too are supporting your teacher's activity and are part of his/her mandala.
This is not the wrong life.
User avatar
Sunrise
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:55 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Sunrise »

Hmm, maybe people see things in a different way.

This is not easy to describe, but there's something that happens when you're in the presence of a living, highly realized teacher. Maybe you only shake their hand and have a little chat, maybe you only look deeply into their eyes for a few moments, but something happens. For lack of a better way of describing it, there's an energy transfer. Through our interaction with them, we get a glimpse of our true nature. The living Master gives us a gift that we just can't yet give to ourselves. For confused, distracted people like myself, we really need to receive this spiritual nourishment and connection. Sorry, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, but having some form of connection to your Guru helps a lot.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17071
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Hmm, maybe people see things in a different way.
People are seeing things the Vajrayana way, where empowerment is the primary connection and bond between Guru and Disciple. That doesn't mean the kind of stuff you're talking about doesn't exist or isn't important, only that that stuff is not necessarily what makes someone your Guru.

In the Vajrayana or Dzogchen the Guru confers empowerment, a connection to the practice lineage, and ultimately introduces one to their own nature. That can happen in the absence of a personal relationship or through it. I assume since this is the Tibetan Buddhism section that’s what we are talking about, and not just spinning in our own ideas or criticizing others practices.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Simon E. »

I realised that without consciously intending to I had projected the norms of yesteryear into the present.
There was a time when everyone in your home town interested in Buddhadharma could have fitted into a broom cupboard.
At that time you could get to know teachers pretty well. And of course they could get to know you... :shock:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Malcolm »

Sunrise wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:06 am
I find this to be so strange. Realistically how much inspiration can one receive from a teacher that you don't know? Without some kind of personal connection, an empowerment is going to be a person in a funny hat saying words you don't understand over you. Commitment to a teacher should be a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of their qualities, it really can't be contrived or imposed upon you. Just my two cents.
A personal connection comes from you, not them. But in Buddhadharma, a connection with a vajra guru is a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of the Buddhadharma, and specifically, Vajrayāna. The guru is merely an embodiment of that.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Malcolm »

Sunrise wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:37 pm ...having some form of connection to your Guru helps a lot.
In Vajrayāna, that connection is forged with empowerment.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Malcolm »

Sunrise wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:37 pm The living Master gives us a gift that we just can't yet give to ourselves. For confused, distracted people like myself, we really need to receive this spiritual nourishment and connection.
From a Vajrayāna point of view, this is an entirely passive.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:08 pm
Sunrise wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:06 am
I find this to be so strange. Realistically how much inspiration can one receive from a teacher that you don't know? Without some kind of personal connection, an empowerment is going to be a person in a funny hat saying words you don't understand over you. Commitment to a teacher should be a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of their qualities, it really can't be contrived or imposed upon you. Just my two cents.
A personal connection comes from you, not them. But in Buddhadharma, a connection with a vajra guru is a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of the Buddhadharma, and specifically, Vajrayāna. The guru is merely an embodiment of that.
Yes, I think this is the key point. Fixating on the embodiment aspect may thoroughly overlook that the point of the vajra guru is to realise the inseparability of the Dharmakaya.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:29 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:08 pm
Sunrise wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:06 am
I find this to be so strange. Realistically how much inspiration can one receive from a teacher that you don't know? Without some kind of personal connection, an empowerment is going to be a person in a funny hat saying words you don't understand over you. Commitment to a teacher should be a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of their qualities, it really can't be contrived or imposed upon you. Just my two cents.
A personal connection comes from you, not them. But in Buddhadharma, a connection with a vajra guru is a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of the Buddhadharma, and specifically, Vajrayāna. The guru is merely an embodiment of that.
Yes, I think this is the key point. Fixating on the embodiment aspect may thoroughly overlook that the point of the vajra guru is to realise the inseparability of the Dharmakaya.
Indeed.
User avatar
Sunrise
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:55 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Sunrise »

The advice I've seen and heard from Buddhist teachers is to be slow in regarding someone as your Guru, and to take the time to check that he or she possesses the qualities that you want to develop yourself. Maybe it varies by tradition, but there's a long list of exceptional qualities that you want to feel confident that your teacher possesses before you regard them as your Guru. For a regular teacher (not an exceptionally famous one), how else are you going to know if that person's a suitable teacher unless you take the time to get to know them? By having a connection to them, I don't mean your playing tennis together on Tuesdays, or something, but you've interacted with them and have a sense of who they are and what qualities they have, and that they would be a good teacher for you.
User avatar
Sunrise
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:55 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Sunrise »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:07 pm I assume since this is the Tibetan Buddhism section that’s what we are talking about, and not just spinning in our own ideas or criticizing others practices.
I apologize if my words came across as criticism. In no way I'm I trying to criticize how someone else practices. It's just that I've heard the warning again and again not to take someone as a Guru without having a good sense of who they are.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Malcolm »

Sunrise wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:43 pm It's just that I've heard the warning again and again not to take someone as a Guru without having a good sense of who they are.
Yes, this is ideal, but for example, when HH Dalai praises HH Sakya Trichen as a "perfect teacher," if we think HHDL is an awesome person (he is), then this is sufficient information to feel confident in receiving teachings from this teacher. When it comes to the lineage heads in general, there should be no problem. The issue arises with teachers of lesser reputation and fame. When one is a beginner in Tibetan Buddhism, it is better to start off with teachers of known reputations, lineage heads, like HHDL, HHST and his sons, the Karmapa (choose one), HH Dudjom Rinpoche Pema Shepa Dorje, Shechen Rabjam, Drikung Khyabgon, Lama Zopa, etc. Then, when you have a little more experience and "know the turf" you can then seek out other teachers when you know how to follow a guru in a proper way.

But you do not need to be your guru's buddy.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17071
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Sunrise wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:07 pm I assume since this is the Tibetan Buddhism section that’s what we are talking about, and not just spinning in our own ideas or criticizing others practices.
I apologize if my words came across as criticism. In no way I'm I trying to criticize how someone else practices. It's just that I've heard the warning again and again not to take someone as a Guru without having a good sense of who they are.
People have personal relationships all the time where they do not really find out who the person is until it's too late. Ask a survivor of domestic violence about how their personal relationship involved getting a good "sense" of who someone is before the abuse started. This is what you always hear "they seemed so nice" "wouldn't hurt a fly".

So the instruction to investigate a Guru is more like checking references and professional credentials and ethics (as dry as that sounds) than it is trying to be someone's friend so that you "get a sense of them". Again, insofar as samsaric personal relationships go, intuition is often not particularly reliable.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9397
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

As a sort of an aside to this, it’s been my observation that
Lamas tend to present the Dharma two ways:

1. Teaching as a commentary on a text
...usually this will be a teaching over a few days where a lama will present a text by a great teacher from the past, usually within the same lineage, reading from it and explaining the meaning, the context, etc. and is in many ways kind of academic in nature, but also very applicable.

2. Teaching as advice on a popular issue
...this will be a topical subject such as “stress in the modern world” and is more in the style of a Sunday sermon, perhaps not even referencing any particular text.

Each is appropriate for different audiences, and there one very well known Rinpoche who begins teaching on a particular text and then almost before starting goes into
a free flowing stream of consciousness, barely ever getting back to the topic.

The second type of teaching is very easy to relate to. It sounds very informal, often humorous, and this kind of teacher can become very popular quickly. They may in fact be highly realized beings. But sometimes not.

And someone who only gives this kind of teaching, IMHO, also needs extra scrutiny. It’s very easy to tell people what they want to hear, or lead them from one thing to another sounding very full of wisdom. If they don’t have good credentials or are “self-.proclaimed living Buddhas” and just never ever mention actual teachings by the Buddha or reference teachings by great past masters, be very careful before regarding them as your teacher.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by tobes »

I think there's also something else in the mix: you sort of have to discover that somehow or other, despite all of your idiocies and conceits, they have taken personal responsibility for your liberation. It can take a good deal of time to see that, but once that is seen all the other questions quickly become redundant. It's just a fact of the matter.
User avatar
Konchog Thogme Jampa
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Saha World/Hard to Take

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

:good:
tobes wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:33 am I think there's also something else in the mix: you sort of have to discover that somehow or other, despite all of your idiocies and conceits, they have taken personal responsibility for your liberation. It can take a good deal of time to see that, but once that is seen all the other questions quickly become redundant. It's just a fact of the matter.
PeterC
Posts: 5173
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by PeterC »

Everyone focusses on how one should investigate the guru, which is right, but probably not enough people actually investigate themselves. Before they receive teachings, and certainly before they receive an empowerment, they should know and understand the commitments they will be taking on and consider their motivation for so doing. You don’t sign a contract without reading it. But way too many people are happy to turn up at an empowerment and make life-long vows without really thinking through what they are and whether they can uphold them.
n8pee
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:08 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by n8pee »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:08 pm But in Buddhadharma, a connection with a vajra guru is a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of the Buddhadharma, and specifically, Vajrayāna. The guru is merely an embodiment of that.
I think using the word 'merely' severely underemphasizes the value of the guru in the equation.
User avatar
Sunrise
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:55 am

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Sunrise »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:19 pm
Yes, this is ideal, but for example, when HH Dalai praises HH Sakya Trichen as a "perfect teacher," if we think HHDL is an awesome person (he is), then this is sufficient information to feel confident in receiving teachings from this teacher. When it comes to the lineage heads in general, there should be no problem. The issue arises with teachers of lesser reputation and fame. When one is a beginner in Tibetan Buddhism, it is better to start off with teachers of known reputations, lineage heads, like HHDL, HHST and his sons, the Karmapa (choose one), HH Dudjom Rinpoche Pema Shepa Dorje, Shechen Rabjam, Drikung Khyabgon, Lama Zopa, etc. Then, when you have a little more experience and "know the turf" you can then seek out other teachers when you know how to follow a guru in a proper way.

But you do not need to be your guru's buddy.
This makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14418
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?

Post by Queequeg »

This topic has been locked and cleaned up because it veered into discussion of Shugden/Dolgyal which is strictly prohibited on Dharma Wheel. For our views on the topic, please see the Terms of Service.

PLEASE REVIEW THE TERMS OF SERIVCE.

Posting Rules

This rule is taken very seriously because of the potential for profound harm.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Locked

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”