Why?

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Viach
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Why?

Post by Viach » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:12 am

Why did numerous stupas, prayer wheels, mantras and prayers, the protectors of the Dharma, etc. not help Tibet to avoid occupation by China?

smcj
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Re: Why?

Post by smcj » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:57 am

It’s like cancer. You’ve got to nip it in the bud. Once negative karma ripens to a certain point nothing can stop it.

Now, where the negative karma came from is a different question. I’ve heard a number of different opinions from different lamas. I think HHDL has said it was because Tibet was isolationist and didn’t want to share the Dharma, which was breaking the Bodhisattva Vow.

But it’s not as if Tibetan society didn’t have other flaws too...
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Why?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

Viach wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:12 am
Why did numerous stupas, prayer wheels, mantras and prayers, the protectors of the Dharma, etc. not help Tibet to avoid occupation by China?
once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.

in my opinion, tibetans aren't much different than chinese or other people. for example they kill to get meat, steal milk to drink and make lamps to offer to the jewells, steal wool to make garments, steal honey to eat and to offer, kill bugs to sow the land, etc. and never payed respect to those beings abused, so it happened the same as to GP, the king and the abbot.

And also something particular happened: they defiled mantras original pronunciations; and also in time also some of them insisted in upholding dol'gyal as a supreme being, and that made their collective karma snap. so they never really stopped accumulating bad karma, just like normal people do. one cannot stop accumulating bad karma really.

also, if i remember well, GP failed in performing a third taming dance, wich would relief the plateau from this misfortunes.

so there are many reasons.

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PeterC
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Re: Why?

Post by PeterC » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:54 am

We don't know the counterfactual: what would have happened if they *hadn't* done those practices?

In any case, the Dharma survived and was propagated.

Simon E.
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Re: Why?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:47 am

Viach wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:12 am
Why did numerous stupas, prayer wheels, mantras and prayers, the protectors of the Dharma, etc. not help Tibet to avoid occupation by China?
You don’t really care why. You are just scoring points.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Why?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:55 am

Well, all those things did their best. Many people managed to flee, dharma was saved and that is a success. Also protectors, high lamas, and also people with common sense who did not have head up their butts knew what is brewing in the east. Take a look at Blazing Splendor, great biography, also the 13th Dalailama warned Tibetans, and many others did so too. The problem were not protectors, prayerwheels, mantra walls, pujas not working. The problem were rich aristocrats and officials ignoring reality and mismanaging the country.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Fa Dao
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Re: Why?

Post by Fa Dao » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:57 pm

It is my understanding that prior to Padmasambhava coming to Tibet the Tibetans were very war-like and had conquered many smaller Asian countries as well as China...just a guess but that might account for their troubles now with China.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
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Re: Why?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:57 pm
It is my understanding that prior to Padmasambhava coming to Tibet the Tibetans were very war-like and had conquered many smaller Asian countries as well as China...just a guess but that might account for their troubles now with China.
Nah, the Tibetan Gvt., religious, and aristocratic establishment was throughly corrupt and brutal. And, Tibetan politics had been dominated by China since the mid 18th century, apart from a 40 year or so hiatus after the fall of the Qing dynasty, and the inevitable war between the Kuomintang and the PLA.

The disintegration of the Tibetan Empire was partly an outcome of the reasons you mention, though Tibet's role as a conquerer has always been overstated, both by themselves and by some lazy historians. They were more like raiders than conquerers.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Why?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:12 pm

I think it’s s mistake to look at karma as a means of determining blame.
The reasons for China’s invasion of Tibet are evident by ordinary observation:
1. China is right next door and become militarily very strong in the 1940s and 1950s.
3. China and Tibet have a long history of paying tribute (recognizing the sovereign independence), essentially bowing before each other’s authority, so, this already provided conditions requiring that some kind of status be established.

My Lama was asked this question and replied that the karmic seeds for the situation in Tibet today were planted long before either Tibet or China existed. He also pointed out that, just like kicking a campfire, sending sparks everywhere, the result has been that the Vajrayana teachings have spread across the world.
Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?
.
.
.
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People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Why?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.
:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

smcj
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Re: Why?

Post by smcj » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:41 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.
:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
The way I’ve been taught is that once negative karma ripens to a certain point it can’t be stopped. Not even a fully enlightened Buddha can stop it.

But that’s just from the teachers I’ve come across.

Kinda like a pandemic.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Why?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:58 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.
:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
Karma is unerring. When one engages in an afflicted action, it will ripen when it meets its causes for ripening. The only way to prevent the ripening of karma is to remove its conditions for ripening. But since sentient beings are generally incapable of that...

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Why?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:58 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.
:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
Karma is unerring. When one engages in an afflicted action, it will ripen when it meets its causes for ripening. The only way to prevent the ripening of karma is to remove its conditions for ripening. But since sentient beings are generally incapable of that...
The what is repentance and four opponent powers?
Don’t they effect the cause ? Or only the condition?

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Why?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:17 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.
:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
even buddha bled due to his past bad actions.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Why?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:09 am

smcj wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:41 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:36 am

once it begins to ripen, karma can't be stopped.
:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
The way I’ve been taught is that once negative karma ripens to a certain point it can’t be stopped. Not even a fully enlightened Buddha can stop it.

But that’s just from the teachers I’ve come across.

Kinda like a pandemic.
That’s correct. However, “certain point” means that conditions for continuation are already met. Once that is complete, fruition is immediate.
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

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well wisher
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Re: Why?

Post by well wisher » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:38 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:17 pm

even buddha bled due to his past bad actions.
One sample supporting anecdotal historical tale was about Devadatta throwing a boulder at Shakyamuni Buddha, causing his foot to bled.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... _5lbud.htm
Then Devadatta himself tried to kill the Buddha. When the Buddha was walking on the Vultures' Rock, Devadatta climbed to the peak and hurled a huge stone at the Buddha. On its way down, the rock struck another rock and a splinter flew and wounded the Buddha's foot, causing blood to flow
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... linter.htm
6. Pierced by a Splinter
In the sixth enquiry, called pierced by a splinter, we hear about how he was struck by a splinter.
In the past, it seems, the Buddha-to-be was reborn in a certain family, and while playing on the main street during his childhood he saw an Independent Buddha walking along that street for alms and thought: “Where is this little shaveling ascetic going?” and taking a splinter of stone, he threw it at his toes. After cutting the skin on the toes blood flowed forth.
But it is also good to remember that: wounds heal and close up over time, pain fade away over time, and human bodies are impermanent and undergoes the unavoidable death process. So in the bigger scheme of things, that bleeding was only a temporary minor inconvenience, and Shakyamuni Buddha was able to carry on with his noble teachings despite that injury.

tkp67
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Re: Why?

Post by tkp67 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:34 am

Am I wrong in thinking that perhaps they have? I base this on their survival in light of persecution and assumption that If it where up to the will of those who are against Tibetan Buddhism it would not exist. Yet it continues to exist in light of these pressures.

Malcolm
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Re: Why?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:10 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:58 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:16 pm


:rolling:
That’s silly.
The planting of karma is dependent on causes.
The continuation of karma is also dependent on causes.
The fruition of karma is likewise dependent on causes.
Eliminate causes anywhere along the way, and you eliminate the results.

Pull a sprout from the ground and it will never grow, unless replanted.
Karma is unerring. When one engages in an afflicted action, it will ripen when it meets its causes for ripening. The only way to prevent the ripening of karma is to remove its conditions for ripening. But since sentient beings are generally incapable of that...
The what is repentance and four opponent powers?
Don’t they effect the cause ? Or only the condition?
Only the condition, never the cause.

fckw
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Re: Why?

Post by fckw » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:29 am

Maybe the question confuses the subjective and the objective realm. In contrary to widespread magical believe, thinking about something does not make it true. Indirect though of course our believes and worldview have an enormous impact on our objective reality.

(And then there might be a level of interaction between mind and matter that is currently still very poorly understood, and not accepted by common science these days. This cannot be ruled out.)

Sunrise
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Re: Why?

Post by Sunrise » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:15 pm

Viach wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:12 am
Why did numerous stupas, prayer wheels, mantras and prayers, the protectors of the Dharma, etc. not help Tibet to avoid occupation by China?
There are so many factors that condition a thing into being. Only Buddha can see all the intricate workings of karma. Instead of the occupation destroying the Dharma and breaking the spirit of the Tibetan people, the Dharma has spread all over the world and there are so many examples of people keeping compassion in the worst situations. That's some kind of miracle, don't you think?

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