Is a Lung Sufficient?

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Terma
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Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Terma »

I had a question that needs some clarification because I have seen this answered on both sides of the coin.

My question is:

1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?

2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?

3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?

I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.

Some clarification would really help.

Thanks.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

if you have doubt it is better you have the empowerment.
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lelopa
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by lelopa »

You have seen the advice but still in doubt? Why?
If I say "yes, you may do that" then you have no more doubts?
When I say "no, not allowed" what do you do?
Waiting for more "yes and "no" of DW users?!?
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Trust your teacher. If they say it is enough, then it is enough. There are many ways these things can work. If you feel like you might need an extra push, then try to get the empowerment.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

lelopa wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:25 am You have seen the advice but still in doubt? Why?
If I say "yes, you may do that" then you have no more doubts?
When I say "no, not allowed" what do you do?
Waiting for more "yes and "no" of DW users?!?
that's the problem with remaining in doubt. sad thing is that each student must endure this alone.
jmlee369
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by jmlee369 »

Terma wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:52 pm I had a question that needs some clarification because I have seen this answered on both sides of the coin.

My question is:

1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?

2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?

3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?

I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.

Some clarification would really help.

Thanks.
Maybe someone is conflating lung and jenang? In Sakya and Gelug, if you have received a wang for a deity of the same or higher class, then receiving a jenang afterwards is enough to engage in self-generation practice of the jenang deity. For example, if someone receives a Chakrasamvara (HYT) wang, then receives a carya tantra Vajrapani jenang, they can do the self-generation sadhana for Vajrapani. (However, within the same class, the wang needs to be of a higher family [e.g. in kriya tantra a lotus family wang followed by a vajra family jenang] or the same family but a higher rank [e.g. in kriya tantra lotus family an Amitayus wang followed by a Tara jenang]).
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PeterC
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by PeterC »

jmlee369 wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:38 am
Terma wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:52 pm I had a question that needs some clarification because I have seen this answered on both sides of the coin.

My question is:

1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?

2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?

3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?

I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.

Some clarification would really help.

Thanks.
Maybe someone is conflating lung and jenang? In Sakya and Gelug, if you have received a wang for a deity of the same or higher class, then receiving a jenang afterwards is enough to engage in self-generation practice of the jenang deity. For example, if someone receives a Chakrasamvara (HYT) wang, then receives a carya tantra Vajrapani jenang, they can do the self-generation sadhana for Vajrapani. (However, within the same class, the wang needs to be of a higher family [e.g. in kriya tantra a lotus family wang followed by a vajra family jenang] or the same family but a higher rank [e.g. in kriya tantra lotus family an Amitayus wang followed by a Tara jenang]).
I think there is some conflation going on due to the superficial similarity with how in Nyingma practice, if one has received some version of a rigpai tsal wang then a lung is sufficient for you to practice something at the Mahayoga, Anuyoga or lower tantra levels. However not all Nyingma lamas would want a student to do that even if it were technically permissible (imagine having received that empowerment from a lama in lineage X and wanting to practice something in lineage Y, for instance). Also I suspect the OP might have been thinking that receiving a RTW would permit one to practice a Sarma yidam, or that a HYT empowerment would permit one to practice a Nyingma practice, with the appropriate lungs - which would definitely not be the case from the perspective of the lineages in which they received the lungs.
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Grigoris
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Grigoris »

Vajrayana bureaucracy is awesome!

The stock/standard advice is stock/standard for a reason!

(Especially) when it comes to practice issues: ASK YOUR TEACHER!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Terma
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Terma »

Thank you for the responses. I have my 2 main teachers that I receive empowerment, transmission and instructions from, and wasn't able to reach them on short notice. This was something suggested by a Lama to be practiced for our current situation with Covid-19, thus my initial interest and questions. After some consideration, this is what led to my decision.

1) Receiving a lung to practice something from different lineage just didn't seem like the proper way to go.

2) I have great faith, trust and devotion in my own teacher's and their respective lineages and I think this is so crucial.

3) I have practices to lay me the rest of this lifetime, so no real need. As I mentioned, it was somewhat of a special case with bodhicitta in mind and not something I would even consider under normal circumstances.

Therefore, I decided to pass.

Thank you for your thoughts. 🙂
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Josef
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Josef »

If you are a nyingmapa and have received the rigpai tsal wang and or a Shitro empowerment the lung is sufficient.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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PeterC
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by PeterC »

Josef wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:54 am If you are a nyingmapa and have received the rigpai tsal wang and or a Shitro empowerment the lung is sufficient.
I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.

Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
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Josef
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Josef »

PeterC wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 am
Josef wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:54 am If you are a nyingmapa and have received the rigpai tsal wang and or a Shitro empowerment the lung is sufficient.
I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.

Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
That's why I said nyingmapa.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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PeterC
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by PeterC »

Josef wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 am
Josef wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:54 am If you are a nyingmapa and have received the rigpai tsal wang and or a Shitro empowerment the lung is sufficient.
I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.

Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
That's why I said nyingmapa.
In practice, not even. Suppose you had received a RTW from Nyingma lama A. You then go to Nyingma lama B who happens to be a Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and ask if you can practice Troma if someone gives you the lung of the mantra. Guess what the answer would be.
Malcolm
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:01 am
Josef wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 am

I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.

Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
That's why I said nyingmapa.
In practice, not even. Suppose you had received a RTW from Nyingma lama A. You then go to Nyingma lama B who happens to be a Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and ask if you can practice Troma if someone gives you the lung of the mantra. Guess what the answer would be.
It depends on the lama. Kunzang Dechen Lingpa wouldn’t have hesitated even for a second, if he thought you should practice troma. The guru is the empowerment.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I've gotten such radically different answers on this from different teachers. Including Sakya teachers, to be honest.
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PeterC
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by PeterC »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:09 am I've gotten such radically different answers on this from different teachers. Including Sakya teachers, to be honest.
Malcolm's answer is pretty much the only one - it depends on the guru.

I think you have to be a bit careful in discussions of this on the internet, because some people are going to think that because they "got direct introduction" they can go off and practice everything they feel like, which is not an approach to practice that I think any lama would recommend
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:08 am The guru is the empowerment.
What do you mean by this sentence?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
Danny
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Danny »

It means your the child and he's the daddy, and he's gonna raise you.


Regards
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Ayu
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Ayu »

Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:46 pm It means your the child and he's the daddy, and he's gonna raise you.


Regards
No, that's not what it means. ;)
But you are putting a common misunderstanding on the screen here.
Those who follow a Guru should realize soon it does not work like that. Everybody has to walk the path on their own feet.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
Danny
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Post by Danny »

quite to the contrary,

the empowerments are in the analogies related to the 7 initiations in the pattern of childhood,

hevajra tantra...

As if washing their newborns, the mothers confers the initiation of cleansing with water.
the child's hair bound on his head, is to securely fix the diadem.
the piercing of the ears and adorning him, is called the initiation of the silk ribbons.
the child's talking and laughing is the initiation of vajra and bell.
his enjoyment is the deliberate behavior being named is the name initiation.
reading and writing is the permission always given by the fathers.
'these seven parts, thus described are known as the seven initiations.


regards
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