Validity of online empowerments

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Varis
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Validity of online empowerments

Post by Varis »

Dunno if this has been discussed here recently, but with the coronavirus pandemic I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss. As I'm sure most of you know, in the past there were a wide array of opinions among different lamas about online empowerments and transmissions. Some saying they weren't valid or didn't want to do them because they weren't sure, some saying they were fine, and others saying only some transmissions could be done online, or if they were done online they should backed up in person later if possible.

Curious to know if any of you know of any lamas who have changed their minds on this subject and began giving online empowerments if they didn't before.
n8pee
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by n8pee »

This is simply my own personal thoughts - but I would wait until empowerments can be received again in person. I don't know how one could enter the mandala virtually.

Transmissions, sure, provided they are live and not recorded.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

ime, the way ChNN did the atiyoga transmission worked perfectly, but it is paramount that the student prepares himself, know what to do, how to do it, already be in an according attitude, disposition, whatever one needs at the previous hours and days for getting in a receptive attitude.

i did the experiment and discovered that if one does not prepare onerself, is such a waste of time; and that if one do prepares oneself, there is an actual chance.

for lung one just need to hear, the alive sound is sufficient.

other yoga empowerment i think is different, it wouldn't work really, in my humble opinion. ChNN never gave this kind of empowerment online.
Varis
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Varis »

n8pee wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:43 pm This is simply my own personal thoughts - but I would wait until empowerments can be received again in person. I don't know how one could enter the mandala virtually.

Transmissions, sure, provided they are live and not recorded.
My personal opinion is to do things as your guru says. Find the guru, and what they say is what really matters.

I.e. if you're a student of Garchen Rinpoche, there's no reason to not receive empowerments via streaming during this time or any other time you might not be able to see him physically as he's always considered them to be equally efficacious. Or if your guru is someone who says you shouldn't, then don't.

I'm just more interested to see if opinions have changed among lamas during these times, though.
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LhakpaT
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by LhakpaT »

Varis wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:40 pm
n8pee wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:43 pm This is simply my own personal thoughts - but I would wait until empowerments can be received again in person. I don't know how one could enter the mandala virtually.

Transmissions, sure, provided they are live and not recorded.
My personal opinion is to do things as your guru says. Find the guru, and what they say is what really matters.
:good:
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LhakpaT
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by LhakpaT »

Speaking of webcast empowerments - or perhaps webcasts of empowerments? - "There will be live webcasts of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's two day Avalokiteshvara Empowerment from his residence in Dharamsala, HP, India on May 30-31, 2020".
Danny
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Danny »

LhakpaT wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:07 pm Speaking of webcast empowerments - or perhaps webcasts of empowerments? - "There will be live webcasts of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's two day Avalokiteshvara Empowerment from his residence in Dharamsala, HP, India on May 30-31, 2020".
Also for anyone interested on YouTube OHHDL channel he's been giving teachings on Nagarjunas Precious Garland.

Regards
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:24 pm ime, the way ChNN did the atiyoga transmission worked perfectly, but it is paramount that the student prepares himself, know what to do, how to do it, already be in an according attitude, disposition, whatever one needs at the previous hours and days for getting in a receptive attitude.

i did the experiment and discovered that if one does not prepare onerself, is such a waste of time; and that if one do prepares oneself, there is an actual chance.
(My bolding for emphasis above). I don't think that's a matter of whether one participates in direct introduction in person versus online, but just how one participates in general, regardless of proximity to the lama.
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:24 pm for lung one just need to hear, the alive sound is sufficient.

other yoga empowerment i think is different, it wouldn't work really, in my humble opinion. ChNN never gave this kind of empowerment online.
That's not exactly true. I definitely received a donwang Ngondzog Gyalpo from Rinpoche, and I believe for Drollo as well. But yes, he didn't give the usual version of anuttaratantra empowerments online.
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heart
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by heart »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:24 pm ChNN never gave this kind of empowerment online.
ChNN gave many donwang (essence empowerment) by webcast.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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tobes
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by tobes »

LhakpaT wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 5:07 pm Speaking of webcast empowerments - or perhaps webcasts of empowerments? - "There will be live webcasts of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's two day Avalokiteshvara Empowerment from his residence in Dharamsala, HP, India on May 30-31, 2020".
This is an interesting point in the discussion, because initially he was conservative about this, but increasingly he has opened to it i.e. in live teachings which have involved a jenang, he has addressed the virtual audience directly, along the lines of 'pay attention, I'm giving this to you out of bodhicitta as if you are here.'

And now in the lockdown he is giving a wang with only translators/attendees etc present.

Frankly, if it's good enough for HHDL.....
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:09 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:24 pm ChNN never gave this kind of empowerment online.
ChNN gave many donwang (essence empowerment) by webcast.

/magnus
and how did peope webcasting the wang actually received it? was there a simil to the Guruyogas of WWT?

i never saw such thing. maybe i'm wrong. could someone corroborate this? maybe i have more empowerments that i thought (laughs)
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heart
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by heart »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 am
heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:09 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 4:24 pm ChNN never gave this kind of empowerment online.
ChNN gave many donwang (essence empowerment) by webcast.

/magnus
and how did peope webcasting the wang actually received it? was there a simil to the Guruyogas of WWT?

i never saw such thing. maybe i'm wrong. could someone corroborate this? maybe i have more empowerments that i thought (laughs)
Yes, kind of similar to the wwt transmission. Basically every deity retreat he did there was a donwang, Mandarava, Ayu Khandro's Singhmukha, Changchub Dorje's Shitro and so on. Donwang's is just a visualisation, then Rinpoche did tri-lung for the sadhana.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:30 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 am
heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 6:09 am

ChNN gave many donwang (essence empowerment) by webcast.

/magnus
and how did peope webcasting the wang actually received it? was there a simil to the Guruyogas of WWT?

i never saw such thing. maybe i'm wrong. could someone corroborate this? maybe i have more empowerments that i thought (laughs)
Yes, kind of similar to the wwt transmission. Basically every deity retreat he did there was a donwang, Mandarava, Ayu Khandro's Singhmukha, Changchub Dorje's Shitro and so on. Donwang's is just a visualisation, then Rinpoche did tri-lung for the sadhana.

/magnus
mm i thought the wang component was actualy approached through DI.

how is that "Donwang's is just a visualisation"?
Malcolm
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:24 pm
heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:30 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 am

and how did peope webcasting the wang actually received it? was there a simil to the Guruyogas of WWT?

i never saw such thing. maybe i'm wrong. could someone corroborate this? maybe i have more empowerments that i thought (laughs)
Yes, kind of similar to the wwt transmission. Basically every deity retreat he did there was a donwang, Mandarava, Ayu Khandro's Singhmukha, Changchub Dorje's Shitro and so on. Donwang's is just a visualisation, then Rinpoche did tri-lung for the sadhana.

/magnus
mm i thought the wang component was actualy approached through DI.

how is that "Donwang's is just a visualisation"?
He means that there are no ritual implements, etc., used, like a vase, laying out a mandala, etc.
Toenail
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Toenail »

The ritual implements, are they really essential? AFAIK they are not. I think one receives an empowerment when it is given online and one attends. In Asia etc they also often broadcast it over video outside the temple etc. They bring the Samaya substances outside, but not everyone receives them at the time etc.

So my question is, are they really essential to receive the empowerment? They are often called branch empowerment etc. and the substances are often the same, like Vajra master initiation etc. Is it not enough to have received them once in a major empowerment in person?
Malcolm
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Toenail wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm The ritual implements, are they really essential?
It depends on the kind of empowerment.
Toenail
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Toenail »

Toenail wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm They are often called branch empowerment etc. and the substances are often the same, like Vajra master initiation etc. Is it not enough to have received them once in a major empowerment in person?
Hi Malcolm,

not sure if you saw this edited part of my posting.
Malcolm
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Toenail wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:11 pm
Toenail wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:42 pm They are often called branch empowerment etc. and the substances are often the same, like Vajra master initiation etc. Is it not enough to have received them once in a major empowerment in person?
Hi Malcolm,

not sure if you saw this edited part of my posting.
Yes, as I said, it depends on the empowerment. If you want to receive a major empowerment, it is necessary to suffer through the endless repetitions, and so on.

That said, having received one, well, then unless you wish to receive another for some reason, there is no need.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:29 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:24 pm
heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:30 am

Yes, kind of similar to the wwt transmission. Basically every deity retreat he did there was a donwang, Mandarava, Ayu Khandro's Singhmukha, Changchub Dorje's Shitro and so on. Donwang's is just a visualisation, then Rinpoche did tri-lung for the sadhana.

/magnus
mm i thought the wang component was actualy approached through DI.

how is that "Donwang's is just a visualisation"?
He means that there are no ritual implements, etc., used, like a vase, laying out a mandala, etc.
i see, thank you guys.
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heart
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Re: Validity of online empowerments

Post by heart »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:24 pm
heart wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:30 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 am

and how did peope webcasting the wang actually received it? was there a simil to the Guruyogas of WWT?

i never saw such thing. maybe i'm wrong. could someone corroborate this? maybe i have more empowerments that i thought (laughs)
Yes, kind of similar to the wwt transmission. Basically every deity retreat he did there was a donwang, Mandarava, Ayu Khandro's Singhmukha, Changchub Dorje's Shitro and so on. Donwang's is just a visualisation, then Rinpoche did tri-lung for the sadhana.

/magnus
mm i thought the wang component was actualy approached through DI.

how is that "Donwang's is just a visualisation"?
I am a little surprised that you don't know this Javier.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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