Sex and Samaya

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Nita-ooi
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Sex and Samaya

Post by Nita-ooi »

What are the consequences of sex for a tantric practitioner?
Does is constitute a Samaya violation if it is done outside of specific practices between vajrayanists (which then wouldn't be exactly "sex", but still)?
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Grigoris
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Grigoris »

Nita-ooi wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:03 pm What are the consequences of sex for a tantric practitioner?
That they may have fun?
Does is constitute a Samaya violation if it is done outside of specific practices between vajrayanists (which then wouldn't be exactly "sex", but still)?
You have received a karmamudra practice?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Wayfarer
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Wayfarer »

I think it ought to be acknowledged that modern culture is far more sexually libertarian than traditional cultures of all kinds, Buddhist included. Since the ‘sexual revolution’, attitudes towards sexual relationships and sexual identity have been completely changed in the modern world - it isn’t called ‘revolution’ for no reason.

There are a couple of good books on Buddhism and sexual ethics, notably Faure’s The Read Thread, and a very large study by Cabezon. But in general terms, traditional Buddhism was critical of sensuality and pursuit of pleasure, generally. Over the many centuries there have been varieties of views but again the 20th century brought in a completely different attitude for better or worse.
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Varis
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Varis »

The tantras are generally pretty clear that we should follow the norms of our society. For Westerners that means casual sex is okay. For a Tibetan that means something completely different. From a sutric view, for laypeople it doesn't matter as long as you're not harming people. In the context of sutric renunciation, renouncing sense pleasures is beneficial. But that doesn't just mean sex, that means food, music, etc. So much emphasis is placed on sex, and the rest of the sense pleasures ignored.
Wayfarer wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:50 am I think it ought to be acknowledged that modern culture is far more sexually libertarian than traditional cultures of all kinds, Buddhist included. Since the ‘sexual revolution’, attitudes towards sexual relationships and sexual identity have been completely changed in the modern world - it isn’t called ‘revolution’ for no reason.
What the cultural views of Tibetans, Thais, Chinese, etc. are is irrelevant to the dharma. I want to practice the dharma, not cultures.
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Wayfarer
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Wayfarer »

Varis wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:56 am From a sutric view, for laypeople it doesn't matter as long as you're not harming people
I’d be interested seeing a supporting reference for that.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Varis »

Wayfarer wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:14 am I’d be interested seeing a supporting reference for that.
Elaborate, are you asking for a source on the third precept? Or are you looking to discuss commentarial opinions?
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Crazywisdom »

Greg is right. It is a samaya if you have received that path fully. If you have finding a karmamudra partner is not going to be easy. It is a whole path in itself. Much easier to avoid it. But it does not mean it is a samaya violation to have sex. If it is done in the traditiinal way you will have sort of amnn arranged marriage. If in a modern way try to hook up with a samaya partner. Barring that you do what tantras say and find a partner who is open to it and slowly disclose what it is about. If you are into Dzogchen you have loopholes related with maintaining awareness and gives your path an integrated and flexible approach.
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Nita-ooi
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Nita-ooi »

I guess that wraps it up. Thanks everyone.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by LhakpaT »

Varis wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:56 am The tantras are generally pretty clear that we should follow the norms of our society. For Westerners that means casual sex is okay. For a Tibetan that means something completely different. From a sutric view, for laypeople it doesn't matter as long as you're not harming people. In the context of sutric renunciation, renouncing sense pleasures is beneficial. But that doesn't just mean sex, that means food, music, etc. So much emphasis is placed on sex, and the rest of the sense pleasures ignored.
Wayfarer wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:50 am I think it ought to be acknowledged that modern culture is far more sexually libertarian than traditional cultures of all kinds, Buddhist included. Since the ‘sexual revolution’, attitudes towards sexual relationships and sexual identity have been completely changed in the modern world - it isn’t called ‘revolution’ for no reason.
What the cultural views of Tibetans, Thais, Chinese, etc. are is irrelevant to the dharma. I want to practice the dharma, not cultures.
Who decides what is culture and what is Dharma? Many Dharma texts are pretty explicit about what is OK sexually and not.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Grigoris »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:35 pm Greg is right. It is a samaya if you have received that path fully. If you have finding a karmamudra partner is not going to be easy. It is a whole path in itself. Much easier to avoid it. But it does not mean it is a samaya violation to have sex. If it is done in the traditiinal way you will have sort of amnn arranged marriage. If in a modern way try to hook up with a samaya partner. Barring that you do what tantras say and find a partner who is open to it and slowly disclose what it is about. If you are into Dzogchen you have loopholes related with maintaining awareness and gives your path an integrated and flexible approach.
Screwing will never be the same again!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Nita-ooi wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:03 pm What are the consequences of sex for a tantric practitioner?
the consequences depends on you, if you are distracted or not.

imo, sexual encounters are great for having experiences. you know we have stronger sensations, self-limitations get uncovered, feel more attachment, emotions arise, etc. altogether, so if you are a tantric practitioner it can be a very very useful time, and also fun!
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Soma999 »

I share just some elements i find useful :

- when you search a partner, don’t look for the physical only, look for the heart (some taste you share) and mind (similar ideas). I have seen someone 100 % christian dating a 100 % all religion is bullshit. After physical attraction gets less strong, those opposition can be a real mess. You’d better wait more than precipitate yourself on anyone.

- keep the intention « how through me loving someone i can add to their life, enrich them ? ».

Concerning sexuality :

- don’t see a body, see a being with infinite deepness, and focus on giving your best, not just thinking of you

- if the intercourse last long enough (20 minutes a minimum) for exemple, that will feed your brains and energise it. To generate duration, stay present (don’t fantasise too much) and use your breath.

There are so many good books to enrich this question.

Sexuality is biology. It’s neither good nor bad. It is what you do with it.

How does it relate to the question ? It’s just common sense. Right. But some people want to involve complex things without integrating the basics.

The basics lived with consciousness can bring you deep blessings.

For complex taoist practice, if you are drawn to it, it will come in due time.

I would be cautious not to « complicate » sexuality with too much « rules » other than common sense, benevolence, understanding and respect (self-respect also).

If you add rigid rules on a domain you have not integrate, it can be dangerous.

There is a lot of shadow on the psychism of sexuality. Most people - i don’t know for you - need to transform this shadow so that love and consciousness shine through sexuality. That should be a profund samaya. Maybe not in the texts. Still relevant.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Varis »

LhakpaT wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:10 pm Who decides what is culture and what is Dharma? Many Dharma texts are pretty explicit about what is OK sexually and not.
A discerning mind can figure it out. Does lighting lanterns for vesak lead you closer to liberation? Do you think the Buddha recommended we light lanterns for vesak?
Prescriptions against anal and oral sex appear in the abhidharma but they don't appear in the early sutras; which means the Buddha never said it.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by fckw »

Varis wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:56 am The tantras are generally pretty clear that we should follow the norms of our society.
Some tantras might state that, other tantras state pretty much the opposite.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by LhakpaT »

Varis wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:29 pm
LhakpaT wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:10 pm Who decides what is culture and what is Dharma? Many Dharma texts are pretty explicit about what is OK sexually and not.
A discerning mind can figure it out. Does lighting lanterns for vesak lead you closer to liberation? Do you think the Buddha recommended we light lanterns for vesak?
Prescriptions against anal and oral sex appear in the abhidharma but they don't appear in the early sutras; which means the Buddha never said it.
Who determines what Shakyamuni said? Tradition, or modern scholars? And how do you decide which ones to follow? What about terma and tantras?

It's rather strange you would rely on tantras but discount the abidharma as being too late.
Varis
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Varis »

LhakpaT wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:28 pm Who determines what Shakyamuni said? Tradition, or modern scholars? And how do you decide which ones to follow? What about terma and tantras?
The sutras? The tantras? The abhidharma texts are not sutras, and they're not tantras.
LhakpaT wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:28 pm It's rather strange you would rely on tantras but discount the abidharma as being too late.
In none of my posts did I state this. The abhidharma texts are supposed to be summaries of the teachings of the Buddha in the early sutras. If something appears in an abhidharma text that does not appear in the sutras we can easily discount it.
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Grigoris »

Soma999 wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:17 pm I share just some elements i find useful :

- when you search a partner, don’t look for the physical only, look for the heart (some taste you share) and mind (similar ideas). I have seen someone 100 % christian dating a 100 % all religion is bullshit. After physical attraction gets less strong, those opposition can be a real mess. You’d better wait more than precipitate yourself on anyone.

- keep the intention « how through me loving someone i can add to their life, enrich them ? ».

Concerning sexuality :

- don’t see a body, see a being with infinite deepness, and focus on giving your best, not just thinking of you

- if the intercourse last long enough (20 minutes a minimum) for exemple, that will feed your brains and energise it. To generate duration, stay present (don’t fantasise too much) and use your breath.

There are so many good books to enrich this question.

Sexuality is biology. It’s neither good nor bad. It is what you do with it.

How does it relate to the question ? It’s just common sense. Right. But some people want to involve complex things without integrating the basics.

The basics lived with consciousness can bring you deep blessings.

For complex taoist practice, if you are drawn to it, it will come in due time.

I would be cautious not to « complicate » sexuality with too much « rules » other than common sense, benevolence, understanding and respect (self-respect also).

If you add rigid rules on a domain you have not integrate, it can be dangerous.

There is a lot of shadow on the psychism of sexuality. Most people - i don’t know for you - need to transform this shadow so that love and consciousness shine through sexuality. That should be a profund samaya. Maybe not in the texts. Still relevant.
The poster asked a specific question on a specific practice, I am not sure if your New Age rant is either helpful or relevant.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Pero »

Nita-ooi wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:03 pm What are the consequences of sex for a tantric practitioner?
Protected or unprotected?



:D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Nita-ooi
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Nita-ooi »

[/quote]You have received a karmamudra practice?
[/quote]

I have not received any karmamudra practice, but i have received other empowerments which entail samaya vows.

I asked this because most Hinayana teachings and vows that i have seen generally seem to be against sex (especially if you are a monk, which i am not, but anyway), so i wanted to know how does this translate into Vajrayana (since i am not a Hinayanist). If it is OK to have sex outside of specific Karmamudra practices, since if it is part of Karmamudra then it is apparently OK, as long as one has the requirements for that, of course.

From some answers i got here, i guess i wasnt very clear on the original post, my bad.

And from your answer i guess it's not OK if one has received Karmamudra practices, is that correct?
And what about people who have not, but are still bound by the general samaya that you get when receiving a Vajrayana empowerment? Most info i got on samaya vows weren't that specific and my guru is kinda unreachable due to COVID-19.

Just trying to get some advice on the "don'ts" of tantra...
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Re: Sex and Samaya

Post by Cinnabar »

I'll share a story.

When I got started with serious vajrayana practice, I had a bomb dropped on me. A monastic who was the attendant to one of my teachers gave me her condolences for being married. And shared that every time I ejaculated having sex with my spouse, I broke my samaya and incurred the karmic equivalent of murdering our teacher.

Needless to say, this frak with my head. It impacted my sex life, my marriage. Cause great regrets in my practice. Threw me into a cycle of misgivings, guilt, regret. Made me regret entering this path.

Years and years later, I studied the three sets of vows quite formally with a different teacher. Over several years. And I learned that this instruction by this nun was basically just misplaced, misguided and wrong. It only applied to adepts practicing the stage of completion with characteristics. And my practice was no where near that level of realization.

The moral is that this is an incredibly rich and complex tradition and in the end you need to talk to your teachers and understand how to integrate your experience into your practice, and take things like sexuality onto the path in that way that is appropriate for you. You as in you a person, you as in you in your life, you as in where you are with your practice.
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