Ngakpas everywhere!

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Könchok Thrinley
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Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Hey,

how is it with ngakpas? Are they a thing outside of Nyingma lineages? For example does a Drikung Kagyu have ngakpa practitioners?

Here by ngakpa I mean the sort of "lay" tantric practitioner who takes the ngakpa vows and has the white robe and all. Please correct my understanding of what ngakpa is and ideally broaden it.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:16 pm Hey,

how is it with ngakpas? Are they a thing outside of Nyingma lineages? For example does a Drikung Kagyu have ngakpa practitioners?

Here by ngakpa I mean the sort of "lay" tantric practitioner who takes the ngakpa vows and has the white robe and all. Please correct my understanding of what ngakpa is and ideally broaden it.
last year i went to participate in a Amithaba practice at a Drikung center here, there was a ngakpa leading. i guess that, it goes in Drikung Kagyu as well.

there is a talk that Grigoris posted a time ago, here:



and here



quite a good talk! hope is useful. also here in his webpageyou can finde his thesis work: https://perfumedskull.com/

cheers!
Charlie123
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Charlie123 »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:16 pm Hey,

how is it with ngakpas? Are they a thing outside of Nyingma lineages? For example does a Drikung Kagyu have ngakpa practitioners?

Here by ngakpa I mean the sort of "lay" tantric practitioner who takes the ngakpa vows and has the white robe and all. Please correct my understanding of what ngakpa is and ideally broaden it.
Well, Chetsang Rinpoche's root guru, Khyunga Rinpoche, was married. That being said, the Drikungpas are traditionally a lineage of monks.
Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:16 pm Hey,

how is it with ngakpas? Are they a thing outside of Nyingma lineages? For example does a Drikung Kagyu have ngakpa practitioners?

Here by ngakpa I mean the sort of "lay" tantric practitioner who takes the ngakpa vows and has the white robe and all. Please correct my understanding of what ngakpa is and ideally broaden it.
Depends on what kind of "ngakpa" you mean. In general, anyone who has received and practices Vajrayāna is a mantrin/mantrika. Then there is the white skirted/long haired bunch. I would not term these people "lay people."
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:18 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:16 pm Hey,

how is it with ngakpas? Are they a thing outside of Nyingma lineages? For example does a Drikung Kagyu have ngakpa practitioners?

Here by ngakpa I mean the sort of "lay" tantric practitioner who takes the ngakpa vows and has the white robe and all. Please correct my understanding of what ngakpa is and ideally broaden it.
Depends on what kind of "ngakpa" you mean. In general, anyone who has received and practices Vajrayāna is a mantrin/mantrika. Then there is the white skirted/long haired bunch. I would not term these people "lay people."
I mean those mainly. Can you give more details on how they are a special bunch?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Then there is the white skirted/long haired bunch. I would not term these people "lay people."
They aren’t people who have left home
Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 am
Then there is the white skirted/long haired bunch. I would not term these people "lay people."
They aren’t people who have left home
That doesn’t matter. And anyway, these days, in Tibetan Buddhism, most monks behave like lay people.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Ngakpa receive certain samaya via a specific empowerment.

In the Dudjom Tersar the vows are given during the Throma Nagmo empowerment.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:42 am Ngakpa receive certain samaya via a specific empowerment.

In the Dudjom Tersar the vows are given during the Throma Nagmo empowerment.
Thank you. Are you aware of such empowerment in other traditions than Nyingma?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by heart »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:02 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:42 am Ngakpa receive certain samaya via a specific empowerment.

In the Dudjom Tersar the vows are given during the Throma Nagmo empowerment.
Thank you. Are you aware of such empowerment in other traditions than Nyingma?
There are the Togdens in the Drukpa Kagyu, it is probably based on an empowerment.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Norwegian »

heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:52 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:02 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:42 am Ngakpa receive certain samaya via a specific empowerment.

In the Dudjom Tersar the vows are given during the Throma Nagmo empowerment.
Thank you. Are you aware of such empowerment in other traditions than Nyingma?
There are the Togdens in the Drukpa Kagyu, it is probably based on an empowerment.

/magnus
It is. But it's a different empowerment (ral pa'i dbang mchog, not the skra dbang). The Togdens have to be fully ordained monks to begin with. And they undergo their monastic curriculum in full, and then there's a number of different practices they have to do, which culminates in retreat on those practices. These retreats are often quite long (not just 3 years, can be over 20 years). And the title of Togden is only bestowed upon a very few select retreatants.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

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heart
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

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Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:26 am
heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:52 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:02 am

Thank you. Are you aware of such empowerment in other traditions than Nyingma?
There are the Togdens in the Drukpa Kagyu, it is probably based on an empowerment.

/magnus
It is. But it's a different empowerment (ral pa'i dbang mchog, not the skra dbang). The Togdens have to be fully ordained monks to begin with. And they undergo their monastic curriculum in full, and then there's a number of different practices they have to do, which culminates in retreat on those practices. These retreats are often quite long (not just 3 years, can be over 20 years). And the title of Togden is only bestowed upon a very few select retreatants.
Yes, not a path for most westerners :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Norwegian
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Norwegian »

heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:46 am
Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:26 am
heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:52 am

There are the Togdens in the Drukpa Kagyu, it is probably based on an empowerment.

/magnus
It is. But it's a different empowerment (ral pa'i dbang mchog, not the skra dbang). The Togdens have to be fully ordained monks to begin with. And they undergo their monastic curriculum in full, and then there's a number of different practices they have to do, which culminates in retreat on those practices. These retreats are often quite long (not just 3 years, can be over 20 years). And the title of Togden is only bestowed upon a very few select retreatants.
Yes, not a path for most westerners :smile:

/magnus
Their curriculum is quite strenuous, that's for sure! But it does produce wonderful teachers like Togden Achö and others, so it is definitely an excellent path to follow if one has that capacity:
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Tenma »

heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:46 am
Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:26 am
heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:52 am

There are the Togdens in the Drukpa Kagyu, it is probably based on an empowerment.

/magnus
It is. But it's a different empowerment (ral pa'i dbang mchog, not the skra dbang). The Togdens have to be fully ordained monks to begin with. And they undergo their monastic curriculum in full, and then there's a number of different practices they have to do, which culminates in retreat on those practices. These retreats are often quite long (not just 3 years, can be over 20 years). And the title of Togden is only bestowed upon a very few select retreatants.
Yes, not a path for most westerners :smile:

/magnus
Why would people want to become ngakpas? What makes y’all want to become one?
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Tenma wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:33 pm
heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:46 am
Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:26 am
It is. But it's a different empowerment (ral pa'i dbang mchog, not the skra dbang). The Togdens have to be fully ordained monks to begin with. And they undergo their monastic curriculum in full, and then there's a number of different practices they have to do, which culminates in retreat on those practices. These retreats are often quite long (not just 3 years, can be over 20 years). And the title of Togden is only bestowed upon a very few select retreatants.
Yes, not a path for most westerners :smile:

/magnus
Why would people want to become ngakpas? What makes y’all want to become one?
to oficiate public rituals i guess? there must be more reasons of course, or maybe it is just a consequence of receiving higher teachings but not being monks.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

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Tenma wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:33 pm Why would people want to become ngakpas? What makes y’all want to become one?
For my money it could be this: there is a vacuum between A) the "ordinary" (scare quotes because I'm trying not to be dismissive) lay Buddhist who makes a few offerings, tries to avoid the 5 bad things (killing, stealing etc.), recites refuge prayers regularly or even something longer from time to time, perhaps incorporating some formal practice along the mindfulness lines while generally trying generally try to be a decent person and B) fully ordained monastics.

For my money, again, the ngagpas offer a better model for the person who lives, for better or worse, in Western society with all its advantages and restrictions, who has neither the resources or inclination to go all-out celibate monastic, but who nevertheless aspires to be a "serious" (scare quotes because I'm not quite sure how that would be defined) practitioner.

That said, very few of us indeed would either be willing to spend the many years of full-time training it would take to become something resembling a traditional ngagpa, nor again would many of us have the resources to live while doing that training. And which of us would be brave enough to claim that "our five root emotions radiate as the five wisdoms, with subject, object and action having dissolved into emptiness, becoming the one single taste of the dharmakaya, and that we are therefore naturally enrolled as a rigzin (vidyadhara), a true, genuine nagkpa with bodhicitta intention"?

On top of which, the market for a ngagpa's skills in the West must be very small indeed. I haven't done any market research on the demand for rainmakers or exorcists in, for example, Newcastle upon Tyne, but I'm guessing that it's small.

But learning about the ngagpa life might nevertheless be a helpful start.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Bristollad »

Lingpupa wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:48 am On top of which, the market for a ngagpa's skills in the West must be very small indeed. I haven't done any market research on the demand for rainmakers or exorcists in, for example, Newcastle upon Tyne, but I'm guessing that it's small.
I'm sure a reliable weather-controller would be very welcome in Newcastle! :twothumbsup:
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by heart »

Tenma wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:33 pm
heart wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:46 am
Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:26 am
It is. But it's a different empowerment (ral pa'i dbang mchog, not the skra dbang). The Togdens have to be fully ordained monks to begin with. And they undergo their monastic curriculum in full, and then there's a number of different practices they have to do, which culminates in retreat on those practices. These retreats are often quite long (not just 3 years, can be over 20 years). And the title of Togden is only bestowed upon a very few select retreatants.
Yes, not a path for most westerners :smile:

/magnus
Why would people want to become ngakpas? What makes y’all want to become one?
Sometimes Ngakpa means a ritual expert but sometimes it means a fully dedicated yogi. For example someone making Troma Nagkpo in the Dudjom Tersar their lifestyle which means total immersion in that system for the rest of your life. So you take the hair empowerment and so on.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Varis »

Lingpupa wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:48 am For my money it could be this: there is a vacuum between A) the "ordinary" (scare quotes because I'm trying not to be dismissive) lay Buddhist who makes a few offerings, tries to avoid the 5 bad things (killing, stealing etc.), recites refuge prayers regularly or even something longer from time to time, perhaps incorporating some formal practice along the mindfulness lines while generally trying generally try to be a decent person and B) fully ordained monastics.
Or you could just practice seriously as a layperson without wearing a zen or getting a hair empowerment, and the whole acting like a Tibetan Brahmin.

I mean I can think of a Gelug lama who is a layperson, doesn't wear zen, has short hair, etc.

Seems to me people want to LARP more than anything.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

Varis wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:11 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:48 am For my money it could be this: there is a vacuum between A) the "ordinary" (scare quotes because I'm trying not to be dismissive) lay Buddhist who makes a few offerings, tries to avoid the 5 bad things (killing, stealing etc.), recites refuge prayers regularly or even something longer from time to time, perhaps incorporating some formal practice along the mindfulness lines while generally trying generally try to be a decent person and B) fully ordained monastics.
Or you could just practice seriously as a layperson without wearing a zen or getting a hair empowerment, and the whole acting like a Tibetan Brahmin.
For example:

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