Ngakpas everywhere!

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Fortyeightvows »

“Merely seeing the holders of the wisdom-mantra with their hair tied-up in a topknot and wearing white robes, their minds blaze with anger like violent flames.
‘Holders of the wisdom mantra’
“The unaltered hair and the undyed cloth of white are the signs of not being contrived and therefore are the marks of the ngakpa or yogin.”
When it is a sign of not being contrived.

But here is a definition of contrived:

Contrived

-deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

-created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

Does some white guy who lives off the taxpayer dressing up in tibetan costume seem contrived?
it follows that it is not appropriate to shave one’s head and dye one’s robes until the level of Sakyamuni is attained.
This is just ridiculous. Total nonsense.

Sakyamuni himself ordained people.

Who even wrote this?
So throw away all of these venerable robes of yours! In particular, enjoying beer without restraint, [your] round bald head sleeping together with a woman’s, in what tantra is that set forth? In which sutra is it explained? Which king proclaimed that? By which realized scholar was that clearly explicated, pray tell?
This last part is just straw man.
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Aryjna
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Aryjna »

A point that is relevant here is that someone who is a ngakpa has received the bodhisattva vow and Vajrayana empowerments. As such, even if all he wants to do is dress up and masturbate in front of a mirror, it is still terrible to criticize and laugh at him, according to the sutras etc. (obviously provided there is not an important reason for doing so, e.g the case of someone unqualified posing as a teacher).
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Mantrik
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:56 am
Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:45 amBut I will allow myself a belly laugh when I see a certain band of westerners who also base their path on a recent British Ngakpa's dream and dress up like an explosion in a brocade factory. ;)
This is called "arguing from the exception."

But seriously: You still cannot judge the people that followed his lead, as you do not know their motivation.

How many of the people here arguing against ngakpa garb (and there are some people here doing exactly that), are doing so based on ignorance and ego?

You see, you're being defensive again - nobody has 'argued against ngakpa garb' have they? Some have said their master does not require it, even that it may not be necessary, but nobody has been 'against' afaik.

My laughing at an extreme appearance is hardly a serious 'judgement' of the sincerity and the efficacy of a person's spiritual path, is it. In fact, based on the little contact I have had, I have reason to believe they are very sound, and recognise their own fascination with dressing up.

As we are going round in circles as you seek to defend against a scarecrow invention of your own, I'll make this my last comment.

I recall a young man I knew who had aspirations of fame as an artist. He wandered around Bath dressed up like Orson Welles, the fedora topped and caped eccentric genius.
The young man's art was not well received and, being Bath, nobody bothered much about the dressing up. He learned a lesson:

Whilst an eccentric genius may dress eccentrically, dressing eccentrically does not confer genius.

I dare to say the same of the Ngakpa's appearance and their siddhis.
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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:28 amYou see, you're being defensive again - nobody has 'argued against ngakpa garb' have they?
Yes they have.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:02 amDoes some white guy who lives off the taxpayer dressing up in tibetan costume seem contrived?
More baseless judgmental nonsense.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:28 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:56 am
Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:45 amBut I will allow myself a belly laugh when I see a certain band of westerners who also base their path on a recent British Ngakpa's dream and dress up like an explosion in a brocade factory. ;)
This is called "arguing from the exception."

But seriously: You still cannot judge the people that followed his lead, as you do not know their motivation.

How many of the people here arguing against ngakpa garb (and there are some people here doing exactly that), are doing so based on ignorance and ego?

You see, you're being defensive again - nobody has 'argued against ngakpa garb' have they? Some have said their master does not require it, even that it may not be necessary, but nobody has been 'against' afaik.

My laughing at an extreme appearance is hardly a serious 'judgement' of the sincerity and the efficacy of a person's spiritual path, is it. In fact, based on the little contact I have had, I have reason to believe they are very sound, and recognise their own fascination with dressing up.

As we are going round in circles as you seek to defend against a scarecrow invention of your own, I'll make this my last comment.

I recall a young man I knew who had aspirations of fame as an artist. He wandered around Bath dressed up like Orson Welles, the fedora topped and caped eccentric genius.
The young man's art was not well received and, being Bath, nobody bothered much about the dressing up. He learned a lesson:

Whilst an eccentric genius may dress eccentrically, dressing eccentrically does not confer genius.

I dare to say the same of the Ngakpa's appearance and their siddhis.
your comments are like "I have no problems if anyone is wearing Dharma robes" and then "you are all just a pretenders". Im sorry but they are.

btw, arent you dzogchen community person? just curious.

:namaste:
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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:22 amyour comments are like "I have no problems if anyone is wearing Dharma robes" and then "you are all just a pretenders". Im sorry but they are.

btw, arent you dzogchen community person? just curious.

:namaste:
He has taken empowerments from LOTR too. :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

“When Langdarma attempted to destroy the teachings, he completely suppressed the monastic order. He was unable, however, to harm the tantric (ngakpa) practitioners, for he was afraid of the power of the great (ngakpa) yogi Nubchen Sangye Yeshe. The yogis (ngakpas) were also protected by the fact that they did not have the outer distinguishing marks of the ordained sangha, and obviously no one was in a position to know that they were vessels of the Dharma, holding it within their minds. So it was that the white-robed tantrikas (ngakpas goskar) perfectly preserved the texts of both the sutras and the tantras, upholding them through exegesis, study, meditation, and practice. It was by this means that they succeeded in keeping the Secret Mantra alive. Thanks to their kindness, these teachings, which are like a wish day,fulfilling jewel, exist to this day and can still be found and practiced.”

Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche Yeshe Dorje “The Long Oral Lineage of the Nyingmapas” Counsels of My Heart
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:28 amAs we are going round in circles as you seek to defend against a scarecrow invention of your own, I'll make this my last comment.

I recall a young man I knew who had aspirations of fame as an artist. He wandered around Bath dressed up like Orson Welles, the fedora topped and caped eccentric genius.
The young man's art was not well received and, being Bath, nobody bothered much about the dressing up. He learned a lesson:

Whilst an eccentric genius may dress eccentrically, dressing eccentrically does not confer genius.

I dare to say the same of the Ngakpa's appearance and their siddhis.
The analogy fails insofar as zendra (and any other ngakpa implement) is more than just an ornament. If you receive the appropriate empowerment, you are entitled (or, according to some teachers, advised/supposed/obliged etc.) to use it, and it is supposed to help your practice. Granted, since the overwhelming majority of us Western ngakpas are ngakpa wannabies who do not do much practice, the help we receive from our ngakpa implements is probably going to be minimal. On the other hand, why discredit even the smallest bit of help, especially if we practice as little as we do?

Anyway, it is really perfectly simple. Some people get these empowerments and their teachers ask/allow/expect etc. them to put some/all/any of the kit and kaboodle on -- and they do so. Great! Others do not get these empowerments and dress differently. Fantastic! Still others are told by their teachers not to touch the ngakpa stuff at all/until they have received proper signs/ are told by their teachers to put it to use, etc -- and they do so. Wunderbar!

All there is to it, really.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Mantrik
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Mantrik »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:22 am
Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:28 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:56 am This is called "arguing from the exception."

But seriously: You still cannot judge the people that followed his lead, as you do not know their motivation.

How many of the people here arguing against ngakpa garb (and there are some people here doing exactly that), are doing so based on ignorance and ego?

You see, you're being defensive again - nobody has 'argued against ngakpa garb' have they? Some have said their master does not require it, even that it may not be necessary, but nobody has been 'against' afaik.

My laughing at an extreme appearance is hardly a serious 'judgement' of the sincerity and the efficacy of a person's spiritual path, is it. In fact, based on the little contact I have had, I have reason to believe they are very sound, and recognise their own fascination with dressing up.

As we are going round in circles as you seek to defend against a scarecrow invention of your own, I'll make this my last comment.

I recall a young man I knew who had aspirations of fame as an artist. He wandered around Bath dressed up like Orson Welles, the fedora topped and caped eccentric genius.
The young man's art was not well received and, being Bath, nobody bothered much about the dressing up. He learned a lesson:

Whilst an eccentric genius may dress eccentrically, dressing eccentrically does not confer genius.

I dare to say the same of the Ngakpa's appearance and their siddhis.
your comments are like "I have no problems if anyone is wearing Dharma robes" and then "you are all just a pretenders". Im sorry but they are.

btw, arent you dzogchen community person? just curious.

:namaste:
Like Greg, I will make a second final final remark in the thread. :)

I'm not sure if your sentence makes sense, but I will try to answer.

I have never made a comment about pretence which is directed at you, or generally against wearing robes as a Ngakpa, but I'm sure if people are feeling sensitive and upset they will find something to misinterpret. My perspective defined is pretty simple:

Those who wear robes but do not live according to the path, whilst doing their best to keep their vows, are pretenders, yes.
This is also true of monastics.

Ultimately, the wearing or not is something for the individual and their Guru.
If you or Greg do, great. If Malcolm doesn't, great. I don't see your problem. Some are getting extremely miffed because others differ, seeing it as some sort of attack. This is not unusual on this forum. Straw men are thrown around like bales in a barn. Actually shows a lack of confidence.

Outside of that I am at a loss to know what you are talking about.

You threw a quote into the debate which said, in effect, that someone had a dream, followed it, and believed that although they were a monastic they were better received by deities and spirits when they dressed up as a Ngakpa, even though they weren't one.
It seems an odd quote to give as it seems to support the opposite of the case you are making.
At best it is saying to those who aren't Ngakpas it is fine to wear the robes and they too may get a better outcome in rituals. That too is guaranteed to upset those who feel they 'earned' them somehow.

It isn't really anyone's business who I have received empowerments from, or what vows I have taken and from whom.
The two masters who have most influenced me have been Dzogchen Rinpoche and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, but I have received empowerments from quite a few others.

But I come back to what I have written repeatedly - if a Guru wants you to wear robes when you attend sessions then do, if they say no then don't, and if they say nothing just make your own mind up.
But please don't fall into the same trap as some others and see every expression of difference or every query as an attack.

You put up a quote with no attempt to explain it. I interpreted it. You've told me I misinterpreted it but can't seem to show how, whereas I have now explained to you how you have misinterpreted me.

But this meandering into the realms of sartorial preference is rather missing the main thrust of the earlier debate on Ngakpas being everywhere.
I am in accord with the view I saw expressed (can't remember where) that people are on the Ngakpa path, ordained or otherwise, but are not Ngakpas until they truly have reliable command of the function of mantras.

Sarwa Mangalam

Ciao Ciao ;)
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:54 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:22 amyour comments are like "I have no problems if anyone is wearing Dharma robes" and then "you are all just a pretenders". Im sorry but they are.

btw, arent you dzogchen community person? just curious.

:namaste:
He has taken empowerments from LOTR too. :roll:
Childish. As if one Guru's view must outweigh all the other Gurus? As I explained, and do so finally again, deal with each in the way they wish.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Cinnabar
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Cinnabar »

I am watching this argument, and it seems impossible, largely because there are different ideas of what ngakpa means, and different identities associated with the term.

1. ngakpa may refer to any practitioner of mantra.
2. ngakpa may indicate a lay practitioner identity contrasted with monastic identity.
3. ngakpa may refer to a ritual specialist.
4. ngakpa may connote a level of accomplishment.
5. ngakpa may indicate having received skra dbang or hair empowerment.
6. ngakpa may refer to family ngakpa lineages.
7. ngakpa has a historical context, including but not limited to gos dkar lcang lo'i sde.
8. ngakpa has a contemporary context as certain communities frame all this in very specific ways.

There's probably more.

The term "ngakpa" is hardly monolithic. Discussing it as if it were is pretty pointless. From what I can tell, 1-8 is at play here from people's responses.

That goes for attacking/criticizing people who claim to be ngakpas (much of this thread) well as people who are ngakpa's lording over people re who the "real" ngakpas are (yea, this happens, not this thread).
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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:44 pm
I have never made a comment about pretence which is directed at you, or generally against wearing robes as a Ngakpa, but I'm sure if people are feeling sensitive and upset they will find something to misinterpret. My perspective defined is pretty simple:
yes, directly you didnt madde such comment. anyway, end of discussion for me.

all the best!


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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:16 am
Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:02 amDoes some white guy who lives off the taxpayer dressing up in tibetan costume seem contrived?
More baseless judgmental nonsense.
not baseless
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:16 am
Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:02 amDoes some white guy who lives off the taxpayer dressing up in tibetan costume seem contrived?
More baseless judgmental nonsense.
not baseless
Then please explain yourself. What is your objection/problem with ngakpas and the outward symbols they use and wear?
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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:24 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:16 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:16 am More baseless judgmental nonsense.
not baseless
Then please explain yourself. What is your objection/problem with ngakpas and the outward symbols they use and wear?
“The unaltered hair and the undyed cloth of white are the signs of not being contrived and therefore are the marks of the ngakpa or yogin.”
When it is a sign of not being contrived.

But here is a definition of contrived:

Contrived

-deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

-created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

Does some white guy who lives off the taxpayer dressing up in tibetan costume seem contrived?
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:27 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:24 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:16 pm
not baseless
Then please explain yourself. What is your objection/problem with ngakpas and the outward symbols they use and wear?
“The unaltered hair and the undyed cloth of white are the signs of not being contrived and therefore are the marks of the ngakpa or yogin.”
When it is a sign of not being contrived.

But here is a definition of contrived:

Contrived

-deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.

-created or arranged in a way that seems artificial and unrealistic.

Does some white guy who lives off the taxpayer dressing up in tibetan costume seem contrived?
But it's a symbol. Should I stop using vajra because I am a white dude living on money from state and my vajra is very much from destructible material?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Cinnabar wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:00 pm I am watching this argument, and it seems impossible, largely because there are different ideas of what ngakpa means, and different identities associated with the term.

1. ngakpa may refer to any practitioner of mantra.
2. ngakpa may indicate a lay practitioner identity contrasted with monastic identity.
3. ngakpa may refer to a ritual specialist.
4. ngakpa may connote a level of accomplishment.
5. ngakpa may indicate having received skra dbang or hair empowerment.
6. ngakpa may refer to family ngakpa lineages.
7. ngakpa has a historical context, including but not limited to gos dkar lcang lo'i sde.
8. ngakpa has a contemporary context as certain communities frame all this in very specific ways.

There's probably more.

The term "ngakpa" is hardly monolithic. Discussing it as if it were is pretty pointless. From what I can tell, 1-8 is at play here from people's responses.

That goes for attacking/criticizing people who claim to be ngakpas (much of this thread) well as people who are ngakpa's lording over people re who the "real" ngakpas are (yea, this happens, not this thread).
what is gos dkar lcang lo'i sde?

it seems as a very very wide meaning. ¿all this wear similar garments?
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:50 pm As if one Guru's view must outweigh all the other Gurus?
I am sorry, but nowhere in the Vajrayana does it say that we should cherry-pick our gurus teaching to suit our personal preferences (ego).

Like nowhere.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Mantrik
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Mantrik »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:51 pm
Mantrik wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:50 pm As if one Guru's view must outweigh all the other Gurus?
I am sorry, but nowhere in the Vajrayana does it say that we should cherry-pick our gurus teaching to suit our personal preferences (ego).

Like nowhere.
You are just trolling now. Straw man hurled high into the air. Not interested in your current nonsense.
You know that is not what I wrote at all and are just inventing your own windmills. Ciao.
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