Tantra and level of concentration

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Riku19
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Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Riku19 »

What level of concentration is required/advised to practice tibetan tantra ("Sutrayanically speaking")? I've heard that access concentration is best and that anything that comes after is optional at best, but it could also interfere. What's your opinion?
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Riku19 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:23 am What level of concentration is required/advised to practice tibetan tantra ("Sutrayanically speaking")? I've heard that access concentration is best and that anything that comes after is optional at best, but it could also interfere. What's your opinion?
There's no uniform answer to this at all in Vajrayana. A Kagyupa typically says something totally different from a Sakyapa for example, and the prerequisites for Tantra reflect that. It's best to just go by what one's teacher says.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Ayu
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Ayu »

I moved this topic from Buddhist Tantra Talk (where users can only answer via PM), because I believe it is easily possible to discuss it without breaking any samaya.
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PeterC
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by PeterC »

Gelug: “this syllable is white like ice, the next one is white like marble, the next is white like crystal, if you get this wrong you’re going to vajra hell”.

Sakya: “we start with visualizing the nearest petal on the lotus seat, and spend six months making sure it’s the right color”.

Kagyu: “just do another million accumulations of the mantra and it will all make sense”

Nyingma: “the deity’s blue, dude, or whatever. Just rest naturally.”
Bristollad
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Bristollad »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:39 am Gelug: “this syllable is white like ice, the next one is white like marble, the next is white like crystal, if you get this wrong you’re going to vajra hell”.

Sakya: “we start with visualizing the nearest petal on the lotus seat, and spend six months making sure it’s the right color”.

Kagyu: “just do another million accumulations of the mantra and it will all make sense”

Nyingma: “the deity’s blue, dude, or whatever. Just rest naturally.”
You think these characterisations have any relation to the actual practise and advice of the groups mentioned?
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PeterC
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by PeterC »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:20 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:39 am Gelug: “this syllable is white like ice, the next one is white like marble, the next is white like crystal, if you get this wrong you’re going to vajra hell”.

Sakya: “we start with visualizing the nearest petal on the lotus seat, and spend six months making sure it’s the right color”.

Kagyu: “just do another million accumulations of the mantra and it will all make sense”

Nyingma: “the deity’s blue, dude, or whatever. Just rest naturally.”
You think these characterisations have any relation to the actual practise and advice of the groups mentioned?
Given your well-developed sense of humor, I'm going to guess that you're a gelugpa?
Bristollad
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Bristollad »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:32 am
Given your well-developed sense of humor, I'm going to guess that you're a gelugpa?
:rolling:

Actually the geshes I've studied with normally give advice more similar to the "Nyingma" advice in your post!
Pero
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Pero »

:lol:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Ayu
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Ayu »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:37 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:32 am
Given your well-developed sense of humor, I'm going to guess that you're a gelugpa?
:rolling:

Actually the geshes I've studied with normally give advice more similar to the "Nyingma" advice in your post!
I agree to Bristollad. PeterC's post is only yet another attempt of spreading nonsense about the Gelugs. :tongue:
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Crazywisdom »

The point is to relax and let it develop naturally. I was taught that it is the level of concentration it takes to remember a hamburger or your mother´s face. So it is not necessary to be laser focused.
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PeterC
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by PeterC »

Joking aside JD’s advice is the best: rely on the specific instructions of the teacher who gave you that practice.
Charlie123
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Charlie123 »

I think maybe people are misreading the OP's post. It seems like they are asking what level of sutrayana-style Shamatha someone needs before practicing Vajrayana. Funny enough, JD's answer still rings true. I would also add that a good teacher will have different answers to this question for different students based on the individual student's affinities and capacity.

Could be that I am the one misreading the OP.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:39 am Gelug: “this syllable is white like ice, the next one is white like marble, the next is white like crystal, if you get this wrong you’re going to vajra hell”.

Sakya: “we start with visualizing the nearest petal on the lotus seat, and spend six months making sure it’s the right color”.

Kagyu: “just do another million accumulations of the mantra and it will all make sense”

Nyingma: “the deity’s blue, dude, or whatever. Just rest naturally.”
Lol. :twothumbsup:
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Riku19 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:23 am What level of concentration is required/advised to practice tibetan tantra ("Sutrayanically speaking")? I've heard that access concentration is best and that anything that comes after is optional at best, but it could also interfere. What's your opinion?
if you are able to sit and meditate for 45 min. straight and atain stability during the first half, then i think you have whats needed to succed in the technical part. you can develop that along the preliminaries/path also.

i don't know if there is a sectarian rule about, it think not.
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PeterC
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by PeterC »

Charlie123 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:26 pm I think maybe people are misreading the OP's post. It seems like they are asking what level of sutrayana-style Shamatha someone needs before practicing Vajrayana. Funny enough, JD's answer still rings true. I would also add that a good teacher will have different answers to this question for different students based on the individual student's affinities and capacity.

Could be that I am the one misreading the OP.
No I think you’re right. OP used specifically theraveda language. The exact definition of access concentration does vary a bit between theraveda teachers, though, so it’s still hard to answer the question. But whether we’re using that language, or elephants, or oxen, or stream/river/mountain. It always comes back to the same thing on the generation stage: ask the teacher.
Crazywisdom
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Crazywisdom »

Charlie123 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:26 pm I think maybe people are misreading the OP's post. It seems like they are asking what level of sutrayana-style Shamatha someone needs before practicing Vajrayana. Funny enough, JD's answer still rings true. I would also add that a good teacher will have different answers to this question for different students based on the individual student's affinities and capacity.

Could be that I am the one misreading the OP.
The question has no answer actually. The methods are totally different.
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Ayu »

Charlie123 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:26 pm... I would also add that a good teacher will have different answers to this question for different students based on the individual student's affinities and capacity.
...
In my observation it once seemed to me just like this.
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Tata1
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Tata1 »

PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:39 am Gelug: “this syllable is white like ice, the next one is white like marble, the next is white like crystal, if you get this wrong you’re going to vajra hell”.

Sakya: “we start with visualizing the nearest petal on the lotus seat, and spend six months making sure it’s the right color”.

Kagyu: “just do another million accumulations of the mantra and it will all make sense”

Nyingma: “the deity’s blue, dude, or whatever. Just rest naturally.”
This actually made me laugh
Varis
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Varis »

None.
The fastest and most effective way to achieve the necessary level of concentration is diety practice itself.
Charlie123
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Re: Tantra and level of concentration

Post by Charlie123 »

Tata1 wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:21 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:39 am Gelug: “this syllable is white like ice, the next one is white like marble, the next is white like crystal, if you get this wrong you’re going to vajra hell”.

Sakya: “we start with visualizing the nearest petal on the lotus seat, and spend six months making sure it’s the right color”.

Kagyu: “just do another million accumulations of the mantra and it will all make sense”

Nyingma: “the deity’s blue, dude, or whatever. Just rest naturally.”
This actually made me laugh
me to
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