Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

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Seeker12
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Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Seeker12 »

I will be relatively vague in this post, but I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity. I have heard, for example, that when it comes to 'forceful liberation' or what have you there are fairly stringent criteria that must be in place, something like 10+ things, and it's probably not terribly common that all of these qualifications are in place.

Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.
Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others — he does not partake of the blessings of the holy life.

Little though he recites the sacred texts, but puts the Teaching into practice, forsaking lust, hatred, and delusion, with true wisdom and emancipated mind, clinging to nothing of this or any other world — he indeed partakes of the blessings of a holy life.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by pemachophel »

There are 10 types of miscreant beings that may be liberated, but this is not the place for discussing this.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Soma999
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Soma999 »

You are very welcome to liberate your own inner ennemies : selfishness, hatred, egotism...

They are the real enemies.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Danny »

pemachophel wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:33 pm There are 10 types of miscreant beings that may be liberated, but this is not the place for discussing this.
There are Rudra subjugation - elimination practices. Some are for enlightened purposes,
Others are to firmly cut malignant conditions that obscure and block the dharma and pervert the teachings. That’s the basic energy principle at play. Just as lama Chopel says, is not open for chit chat.
Qualified means just that.
Regards

*just add to OP, the question posed is a good and proper, so don’t feel like the replies are a dismal of wanting to understand the subject, it’s just dharma practitioners are in general, often a superstitious bunch and often won’t color outside the lines with information for a variety of reasons. Valid reasons I should add.
Hope that’s a reasonable reply?
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Mantrik »

Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.

'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis

Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.

I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
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Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Charlie123 »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.

'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis

Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.

I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
You misread the post. He is not asking about the qualifications of the practitioner.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Danny »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.

'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis

Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.

I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
Does that include Garudas?
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Mantrik »

Danny wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:02 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.

'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis

Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.

I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
Does that include Garudas?
Especially Garudas ;)
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Mantrik »

Charlie123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:57 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.

'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis

Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.

I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
You misread the post. He is not asking about the qualifications of the practitioner.
''I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity...'' :shrug:

I didn't misread it but he may have phrased it oddly if he means 'conditions' or 'criteria' or 'uncommon preliminaries' etc.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Charlie123
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Charlie123 »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:19 pm
Charlie123 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:57 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
The post seems to be asking about the qualifications to perform practices, not about the secret aspects of the practices themselves.

'Qualified' to me means 3 possibilities:
1. According to scripture
2. According to a lineage Guru
3. According to possession of the siddhis

Being given permission or approval is one aspect, having the ability is another, but it still leaves the question about whether a person should perform a particular practice and that is a matter of their vows and the judgement of those they trust in forming their own decision.

I suspect if you are after a list of qualities then someone may be able to point you to a scripture, or to their own lineage list if not secret - otherwise it's the usual 'ask your Guru' response, to be sure.
The lineage logic would be that anyone contemplating performing, for example, 'liberation' , would surely be told those details during the relevant empowerment. If they aren't following lineage teachings, they don't need to know and shouldn't be doing it.
You misread the post. He is not asking about the qualifications of the practitioner.
''I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity...'' :shrug:

I didn't misread it but he may have phrased it oddly if he means 'conditions' or 'criteria' or 'uncommon preliminaries' etc.
---
Last edited by Charlie123 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Danny »

Mostly it means someone who shows signs of accomplishment of the yidam, and not defeating themselves by breaking commitments. So no one gonna talk about it. That’s basically it.
It’s pretty open and shut.
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Seeker12
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Seeker12 »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
Either you misread it or I wrote it poorly, probably more the latter than the former.

My question was basically this - in order to use wrathful means to 'forcefully liberate' a being, I believe there are certain criteria in place that the being-to-be-liberated needs to meet. That is, you wouldn't 'forcefully liberate' a being just because you don't like the look of their face, or they smell funny, or even because they get angry at you in an unreasonable way. It's only in particularly severe cases that this would be done, and there are clarifying qualifications or.. like there is a list of criteria that would need to be met, more or less.
Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others — he does not partake of the blessings of the holy life.

Little though he recites the sacred texts, but puts the Teaching into practice, forsaking lust, hatred, and delusion, with true wisdom and emancipated mind, clinging to nothing of this or any other world — he indeed partakes of the blessings of a holy life.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Mantrik »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
Either you misread it or I wrote it poorly, probably more the latter than the former.

My question was basically this - in order to use wrathful means to 'forcefully liberate' a being, I believe there are certain criteria in place that the being-to-be-liberated needs to meet. That is, you wouldn't 'forcefully liberate' a being just because you don't like the look of their face, or they smell funny, or even because they get angry at you in an unreasonable way. It's only in particularly severe cases that this would be done, and there are clarifying qualifications or.. like there is a list of criteria that would need to be met, more or less.
Ah, OK, I understand now.
Yes, there are criteria, but that must come from the Lama who gives the guidance alongside teaching the ritual.
I don't know of anything public, but in general terms it must be that the harm being done by the spirit is so great as to warrant it.
Other measures should have been considered or tried and exhausted. Antidote practices and gentler methods like asking them nicely to desist, with some food and wine, maybe. :)
It must also be clear that the harm being done can be clearly attributed to that spirit, of course, and such a diagnosis is a specialised thing and performed by someone accepted as 'qualified' . ;)
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

hitler should have being "stopped" in munich.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by pemachophel »

If Hitler was possessed by some very powerful entity, not so easy to stop him. Same with Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. Same with Trump. It would take even greater power. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us do not have that kind of power. We're talking complete experience of oneself as the Deity, not just wishful thinking. Maybe I shouldn't speak for others, but I know I can't stay in that space all day even though I practice all day. IME, outside of real retreat, very difficult.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Charlie123 »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:10 pm I will be relatively vague in this post, but I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity. I have heard, for example, that when it comes to 'forceful liberation' or what have you there are fairly stringent criteria that must be in place, something like 10+ things, and it's probably not terribly common that all of these qualifications are in place.

Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.
Your profile pic is quite yonic.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Adamantine »

pemachophel wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm If Hitler was possessed by some very powerful entity, not so easy to stop him. Same with Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. Same with Trump. It would take even greater power. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us do not have that kind of power. We're talking complete experience of oneself as the Deity, not just wishful thinking. Maybe I shouldn't speak for others, but I know I can't stay in that space all day even though I practice all day. IME, outside of real retreat, very difficult.
Not to mention, I heard our mutual teacher Lama Dawa Chodaak Rinpoche say once: “Before one engages in wrathful liberation, one should have accomplished the siddhi to bring beings back from the dead.”

Yeah, I’d say that’s pretty powerful...
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

pemachophel wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:32 pm If Hitler was possessed by some very powerful entity, not so easy to stop him. Same with Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot. Same with Trump. It would take even greater power. Let's not kid ourselves, most of us do not have that kind of power. We're talking complete experience of oneself as the Deity, not just wishful thinking. Maybe I shouldn't speak for others, but I know I can't stay in that space all day even though I practice all day. IME, outside of real retreat, very difficult.
i agree, it is not so simple, but i brought hitler to the table as an example of an individual that might have quilified for the criteria.

also, plans can be frustrated and that can prevent bigger problems. i think. and is much simpler.
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 pm Did people misread the post, or am I ?
Either you misread it or I wrote it poorly, probably more the latter than the former.

My question was basically this - in order to use wrathful means to 'forcefully liberate' a being, I believe there are certain criteria in place that the being-to-be-liberated needs to meet. That is, you wouldn't 'forcefully liberate' a being just because you don't like the look of their face, or they smell funny, or even because they get angry at you in an unreasonable way. It's only in particularly severe cases that this would be done, and there are clarifying qualifications or.. like there is a list of criteria that would need to be met, more or less.
zhing bcu - ten defects or the ten objects are: 1) The enemy of the Three Jewels, 2) the enemy of the master, 3) The samaya violator, 4) the perverted one, 6. the hostile one, 7. The samaya enemy with a wicked character, 8. The one arriving to the congregation, 9. the harmer of everyone, 10. the three lower realms. The enemies and obstructers are one's own and other's ignorance. In the liberation offering the ignorance is liberated into awareness [ry]
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Re: Qualifications for Wrathful Activity

Post by Crazywisdom »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:10 pm I will be relatively vague in this post, but I'm curious if there is a publicly available list of the qualifications for wrathful activity. I have heard, for example, that when it comes to 'forceful liberation' or what have you there are fairly stringent criteria that must be in place, something like 10+ things, and it's probably not terribly common that all of these qualifications are in place.

Anyone know anything about this? Thank you.
The tantras prescribe a number of mantras and signs to look for.
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