cloudburst wrote: Namdrol wrote:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?
Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)
It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.
No, I am just well trained in both Vajrayāna (Lamdre, Dzogchen) and Tibetan medicine.
So the Kalachakra Tantra explains that when you fart, you expel your downward-voiding wind? Would you care to cite a few lines?
Also, I can see how you may have misunderstood my question above. I was asking... since ejaculation (and of course urination etc) are caused by the dvw, what are you proposing in these cases? In the case of flatulence, you explain that the dvw moves downward and leaves the body. What is your proposition with respect to any of the other eliminations through lower doors, as they are not composed of air?
Of course they "happen becasue of the" dvw, but your claim that the dvw is actually the air that moves when we are flatulent is a misleading example as it does not mapo on to any other function of the dvw. My question is: how to explain in the case of movement that is not physical air, but rather liquid, etc.
We are not communicating well.
That flatus is the downward voiding wind is a fact. The apana-vāyu is also responsible for moving liquids out of the body such as sperm, urine and so forth, as well as solids such as feces. It's location in the body is the pelvic region.
There is a passage in the Kalacakra that describes the anus as being the lower end of the central channel. The famous Doctor Zurkar Lodo Gyalpo explains the following in his "Oral Advice of the Grandfathers", his commentary on the formation of the body chapter in the Explanatory Medicine Tantra
This verse (from the Explanatory Tantra) "The channels of formation divide into three from the navel" demonstrates the lalanā, rasanā and the lower end of the avadhūtī. The channel that creates kapha, etc., is the lalanā through which the element of water moves. The channel that creates blood and so on is the rasanā through which the element of fire moves. The channel that creates vāyu and so on is the lower part of the avadhūti. The lower ends of the rasanā and lalanā are demonstrated through implication. These three tips both below and above the navel are applied according to the intention of the Shri Kalacakra i.e. the Adibuddha states:
Those have three tips below,
likewise, three tips above.
The tip of Rahu is present in the center,
the tip of Surya is on the right,
the tip of Candra is on the left.
The vāyus of water, fire and space
move feces, urine, and sukra
through the bottom of the right, left, and central [channels].
The channels interlaced like a chain
are the three pathways of the prāṇa and the apaṇa.
The great commentary states "In terms of the the so called 'channel interlaced into a chain which runs to the location of amrita', the amritaṇāḍī is in forehead. "Moving there" is moving into the location of amrita i.e. the lalanā, the rasanā, and the avadhūtī. Since those are interlaced like a chain, having made three pathways between the navel and the heart, once again they intersect in the center of the heart in the center of the avadhūtī. The lalanā and the rasanā move to the right and left sides. After that, between the heart and the throat, they make three paths. In the same way they are three paths between the throat and the forehead, and likewise between the forehead and crown. Having made three paths four times, the lalanā ends in twelve different locations other from the left nostril. The rasanā from the right (nostril). The avadhūtī leaves simultaneously from both nostrils. Likewise, having made three paths below the navel and again below the secret cakra, between feces and urine moving from the right and the left, and in the center of the secret lotus there is the conch nāḍī. Below the conch nāḍī, the mahāmalā (great waste i.e. rectum) channel moves from the center. From penis or the vagina, the urine channel moves from the left, and the seminal channelfrom right."
Incidentally, in the Blue Beryl, Desri Sangye Gyatso reproduces the above passage more or less in its entirety without comment.
I should think the meaning of all of this is rather clear.
There are three vāyus that are subsets of the apana vāyu. The apāna vāyu in general governs the lower ends of the three channels. The three lower channels are the rectum i.e. the lower end of the central channel; the urinary tract i.e. the lower end of the lalanā, and the channel which emits semen or ovum i..e the lower end of the rasanā channel.
When someone has an excess of apana vāyu, they fart, or have diarrhea, etc. There are many disorders they have have connected with the three lower passages. We take wind in, some of it is expelled from the lower end of the body as flatus.
However, I will allow that my understanding of many tantric topics has been altered considerably through my studies of Tibetan medicine.