Tara

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Pero
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Pero » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:58 pm

Adamantine wrote: I had a similar question about Kali vs. Krodakali (Troma), since I was assured by my Lama that there was actually no difference between the two. I wanted to understand why then people historically and even today made sacrifices, animal and sometimes human to this goddess, who was a pure emanation of compassionate intent. I was assured that this was simply an unfortunate misunderstanding that some people developed regarding the symbolism of blood, or rakta.
You mean it was all symbolic?! Uh oh.... :shock:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Norden
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Norden » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:20 am

heart wrote:
Norden wrote: Just to clarify, I am not a Theravadin, I am a Buddhist. Main practice is Vajrayana or Mahayana but I find Theravada also beautiful. I would like to learn more and not just accept everything, that is what I love about Buddhism. My point here is not to state this one is good or that one is bad but rather if in Hindu, Tara is a Goddess who loves blood then why in Buddhism Tara Bodhisattva has the same Mantra as that of Hindu Tara. As Shakyamuni Buddha we recite Shakyamuni Mantra, Amitabha Buddha we recite Amitabha Buddha Mantra, Karmapa we recite Karmapa Mantra, etc. And if people make another form of statue of let's say Shakyamuni Buddha but they recite Shakyamuni Buddha Mantra, it is still Shakyamuni Buddha Mantra. Do you know what I mean?
If I was mistaken then I am sorry to have called you a Theravada purist. But Tibetan Buddhist forums often have post from people that consider TB an degeneration of Buddhism, most of them are Theravada purist.
So talking about Tara. Speculation about her origins are in the scientific sphere so lets be a bit more practical when we talk about Tara. In Tibet she has always been a manifestation of compassion, considered to be born from a tear of Avolekithesvara crying over the suffering of sentient beings. In general she is considered a Kriya Yoga practice which among other things means that when doing her practice you have to be very careful about hygiene and in particular avoid eating meat and drinking alcohol. Offering blood or meat to her would be to break you Samaya. This is the Tara that 90 % of all Tibetan Buddhist practice and so you might understand that it will be considered very impolite and rude to suggest that Tara "loves blood".

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Tara" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then there are many other forms of Tara and some of them are according to the highest Tantras. The highest Tantras have a language and practices that might not be compatible with the frame of mind you have. There is a strong sexual and violent imagery that can't be understood without empowerment and liberating instructions. But there is no need to enter this sphere of practice. The various levels of Tantra are actually stand-alone both as a practice and a lineage. In general when you practice Vajrayana or just study Vajrayana you should first find a qualified teacher that have the qualities you consider a realized master should have. When you find such a master you can really resolve your doubts.

/magnus
Thanks for your reply.
I know Tara practice therefore there is concern whether it is actually a Hinduism or Buddhism practice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(Devi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

There is no doubt about highest Tantras, it's only when you feel like whether you do a Buddhist practice or not. When I ask questions for instance about Jesus to people who believe in him, we are more likely to get the answers from people who believe in him. There is another story or fact about him they might also need to know. It can be quite useful to gather information and discuss Buddhism from Buddhists I think.
If I just ask you regarding the same mantra alone what is your view? Because if according to your view Tara's origin is some kind of a legend then there is always possibility it is not legend origin as well.

Norden
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Norden » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:34 am

Adamantine wrote:
Norden wrote: Just to clarify, I am not a Theravadin, I am a Buddhist. Main practice is Vajrayana or Mahayana but I find Theravada also beautiful. I would like to learn more and not just accept everything, that is what I love about Buddhism. My point here is not to state this one is good or that one is bad but rather if in Hindu, Tara is a Goddess who loves blood then why in Buddhism Tara Bodhisattva has the same Mantra as that of Hindu Tara. As Shakyamuni Buddha we recite Shakyamuni Mantra, Amitabha Buddha we recite Amitabha Buddha Mantra, Karmapa we recite Karmapa Mantra, etc. And if people make another form of statue of let's say Shakyamuni Buddha but they recite Shakyamuni Buddha Mantra, it is still Shakyamuni Buddha Mantra. Do you know what I mean?
I had a similar question about Kali vs. Krodakali (Troma), since I was assured by my Lama that there was actually no difference between the two. I wanted to understand why then people historically and even today made sacrifices, animal and sometimes human to this goddess, who was a pure emanation of compassionate intent. I was assured that this was simply an unfortunate misunderstanding that some people developed regarding the symbolism of blood, or rakta. I will not get into this deeply because these are not open teachings but if you practice Vajrayana you should know or be able to ask your own Lamas.

Similarly, there are many references in Vajrayana to "blood-drinkers", including Vajrakilaya, but you have to understand this symbolism properly. It is not intended to mean literally drinking the blood of innocent victims such as a vampire may, but related to the same essence of all Buddhist teachings: subduing ego, eradicating dualistic fixation, purifying awareness, etc. (And again there are more esoteric layers of meaning) So there is probably a similar symbolism related to Tara in some of her wrathful manifestations, which also have been misappropriated or misunderstood by some. I am sure there are Hindu practitioners who may have deep insight and more correct view of these things, and we can look at the rest as degeneration, even as with some unfortunate cults of Buddhism there has been degeneration because of mistaken views. . Best to simply keep pure view of these wisdom deities, and to try to understand their mysteries through your own Gurus explanation!
This is what I am thinking as well. As Hinduism and Buddhism (particularly Tibetan Buddhism) has been strongly influencing each other, who misunderstood who? Few years ago, once I asked about Kalachakra prophecy, the answer was it is a symbolic war, a war within ourselves: delusions, anger and other poisons BUT it also can be interpreted as real war. So what do you think the best way to understand that?

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Adamantine
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Adamantine » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:56 am

Norden wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
I had a similar question about Kali vs. Krodakali (Troma), since I was assured by my Lama that there was actually no difference between the two. I wanted to understand why then people historically and even today made sacrifices, animal and sometimes human to this goddess, who was a pure emanation of compassionate intent. I was assured that this was simply an unfortunate misunderstanding that some people developed regarding the symbolism of blood, or rakta. I will not get into this deeply because these are not open teachings but if you practice Vajrayana you should know or be able to ask your own Lamas.

Similarly, there are many references in Vajrayana to "blood-drinkers", including Vajrakilaya, but you have to understand this symbolism properly. It is not intended to mean literally drinking the blood of innocent victims such as a vampire may, but related to the same essence of all Buddhist teachings: subduing ego, eradicating dualistic fixation, purifying awareness, etc. (And again there are more esoteric layers of meaning) So there is probably a similar symbolism related to Tara in some of her wrathful manifestations, which also have been misappropriated or misunderstood by some. I am sure there are Hindu practitioners who may have deep insight and more correct view of these things, and we can look at the rest as degeneration, even as with some unfortunate cults of Buddhism there has been degeneration because of mistaken views. . Best to simply keep pure view of these wisdom deities, and to try to understand their mysteries through your own Gurus explanation!
This is what I am thinking as well. As Hinduism and Buddhism (particularly Tibetan Buddhism) has been strongly influencing each other, who misunderstood who? Few years ago, once I asked about Kalachakra prophecy, the answer was it is a symbolic war, a war within ourselves: delusions, anger and other poisons BUT it also can be interpreted as real war. So what do you think the best way to understand that?

Well personally it is up to you what you choose to believe. I have studied both systems, and have personally found the accounts and logic of the Buddhist approach make more sense to me. There is a clearly defined understanding in Buddhism of the 8 classes of beings, as well as divisions between worldly gods and wisdom deities. Practicing on a wisdom deity will bring specific results, practicing on a worldly god others. As Namdrol just pointed out in another thread, --practicing on worldy gods and spirits is easier-- meaning more tangible results can be quickly seen. But these results will not be the result of enlightenment. However, because of these obviously apparent results these practices are popular and propagated widely (even Buddhists practice on worldy gods for temporary benefit. However, wisdom deities when properly practiced bring the ultimate result, and if you take the time to research this you will find the evidence. For instance, in the case of Krodakali / Troma, there are many students of both Dudjom Lingpa and Dudjom RInpoche who took Troma as their yidam and manifested rainbow body at the time of their death-- a clear indication of their full accomplishment of the practice and enlightenment. And these are recent, not far off accounts from ancient times. I have heard first-hand reports of this. So there is no doubt to me that Troma is herself pure wisdom deity. Because there is the power of this truth, as well as the power of the truth of Dharma itself, it is clear to me that it is the people who are making sacrifices in the name of this deity out of worldly concerns that are misunderstanding.

In regards to Kalachakra, I am not a scholar of this Tantra but Alexander Berzin is. So I would look to his writings for the details on this --there are many essays on his site but this one relates specifically to your question: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... eddon.html

-A
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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heart
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by heart » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:40 am

Norden wrote:
Thanks for your reply.
I know Tara practice therefore there is concern whether it is actually a Hinduism or Buddhism practice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(Devi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

There is no doubt about highest Tantras, it's only when you feel like whether you do a Buddhist practice or not. When I ask questions for instance about Jesus to people who believe in him, we are more likely to get the answers from people who believe in him. There is another story or fact about him they might also need to know. It can be quite useful to gather information and discuss Buddhism from Buddhists I think.
If I just ask you regarding the same mantra alone what is your view? Because if according to your view Tara's origin is some kind of a legend then there is always possibility it is not legend origin as well.
What is the name of the Tara practice that you know? My guess is that you don't know and certainly haven't practiced any Buddhist Tara practice. If you did we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just reciting the mantra is not a proper Buddhist practice no matter what you think. When we practice Tara we follow a sadhana where there are no doubt about what you are doing or who we are praying to.

Image

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Norden
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Norden » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:29 am

heart wrote:
Norden wrote:
Thanks for your reply.
I know Tara practice therefore there is concern whether it is actually a Hinduism or Buddhism practice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(Devi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

There is no doubt about highest Tantras, it's only when you feel like whether you do a Buddhist practice or not. When I ask questions for instance about Jesus to people who believe in him, we are more likely to get the answers from people who believe in him. There is another story or fact about him they might also need to know. It can be quite useful to gather information and discuss Buddhism from Buddhists I think.
If I just ask you regarding the same mantra alone what is your view? Because if according to your view Tara's origin is some kind of a legend then there is always possibility it is not legend origin as well.
What is the name of the Tara practice that you know? My guess is that you don't know and certainly haven't practiced any Buddhist Tara practice. If you did we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just reciting the mantra is not a proper Buddhist practice no matter what you think. When we practice Tara we follow a sadhana where there are no doubt about what you are doing or who we are praying to.

Image

/magnus
Hi Magnus I was born in Buddhist family and I really did Green Tara Sadhana practice but it has stopped for a while because of this doubt. I don't know whether it is not right to keep myself open to the information that perhaps I have not known. I had got even more about Tara's origin, evolvement and practice and so on but let me just keep this doubt to myself.

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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by heart » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:58 am

Norden wrote:Hi Magnus I was born in Buddhist family and I really did Green Tara Sadhana practice but it has stopped for a while because of this doubt. I don't know whether it is not right to keep myself open to the information that perhaps I have not known. I had got even more about Tara's origin, evolvement and practice and so on but let me just keep this doubt to myself.
Like I said several times there are no definite scientific facts about Tara's origins, you are just making it up. Your only source so far is a wikipedia page. Feel free to produce some hard evidence supporting your claim. Then, apart from the origins, there is a very long history of Buddhist practice of Tara in India and the Himalayas. If you can't trust 1000 years (this is just Tibet) of applied wisdom there is nothing you can trust Norden and it doesn't really matter what I manage to prove to you. If you trust the Indian masters like Atisha or Tibetan masters Longchenpa and so on, then you can trust in the Buddhist Tara. If you don't trust them you can just forget about Tibetan Buddhism altogether. If you don't have trust or faith in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha you don't even have Buddhism. It is based in trust and faith in what is wholesome, what is actually producing good results as is explained by the Buddha himself in the Kalama sutta;

"Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el008.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some links of interest:

http://www.khandro.net/deities_tara1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Tara-Hermene ... 0520036352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Adamantine
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Re: Tara

Post by Adamantine » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:09 am

Norden, Magnus is right.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Norden
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Norden » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:36 am

Why would I make things up only to keep the doubt to myself alone. It is good to preserve our faith, I decided not to say it as it has no benefit at all to everyone.

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heart
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by heart » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:31 am

Norden wrote:Why would I make things up only to keep the doubt to myself alone. It is good to preserve our faith, I decided not to say it as it has no benefit at all to everyone.
Faith in Tara is nothing something that needs preserved by lying. I am saying that you make up things because your statement isn't supported by scientific facts, which make it FUD.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Arnoud
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Re: Tara

Post by Arnoud » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:06 am

The Cult of Tara might be an interesting book for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Tara-Hermene ... 377&sr=8-1

Another one would be In Praise of Tara

http://www.amazon.com/Praise-Tara-Songs ... 538&sr=1-1

Norden
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by Norden » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:11 am

heart wrote:
Norden wrote:Why would I make things up only to keep the doubt to myself alone. It is good to preserve our faith, I decided not to say it as it has no benefit at all to everyone.
Faith in Tara is nothing something that needs preserved by lying. I am saying that you make up things because your statement isn't supported by scientific facts, which make it FUD.

/magnus
What I am saying is, there are a lot of people interested in Buddhism, some of them are just started and I want them to keep their faith, it is really good to do that. It is okay for you to assume that I lied, but I did not. You don't know me, lying about these things with the intention to create confusion is really bad karma. Confusion itself is not good. That's why I decided to do so.

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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by heart » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:24 am

Norden wrote:
heart wrote:
Norden wrote:Why would I make things up only to keep the doubt to myself alone. It is good to preserve our faith, I decided not to say it as it has no benefit at all to everyone.
Faith in Tara is nothing something that needs preserved by lying. I am saying that you make up things because your statement isn't supported by scientific facts, which make it FUD.

/magnus
What I am saying is, there are a lot of people interested in Buddhism, some of them are just started and I want them to keep their faith, it is really good to do that. It is okay for you to assume that I lied, but I did not. You don't know me, lying about these things with the intention to create confusion is really bad karma. Confusion itself is not good. That's why I decided to do so.
Well Norden, only you seem to have doubts about Tara here. That was the reason you started this thread, no? You wanted to share your doubts that reciting the mantra of Tara somehow magically connected you with a blood-drinking Hindu goddess. You also consider those doubts more important than even scientific facts if I understand you. What can I say.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Norden
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Re: Tara

Post by Norden » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:36 am

Clarence wrote:The Cult of Tara might be an interesting book for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Tara-Hermene ... 377&sr=8-1

Another one would be In Praise of Tara

http://www.amazon.com/Praise-Tara-Songs ... 538&sr=1-1
Thank you

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Adamantine
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Re: Tara

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:36 am

Norden, maybe I was not that clear in one of my prior posts: what I was trying to get at is that you can judge the nature of a deity or god by how it affects the people practicing on it. You seem to be suffering from the question: is Tara objectively a worldly god, with desire for sacrifice and blood that Buddhists mistakenly worship? Or is Tara an authentic wisdom deity, an awakened Buddha-mind with feminine manifestation?

Well I believe that if she was merely a worldly god with negative afflictions you would see negative results from people practicing on her. Similarly, there is the debate about the gyalpo(king-demon, one of the 8 classes of beings) that some mistakenly call a protector and even enlightened: but if you look outside objectively at the communities and individuals that practice it, both historically and today, then you can see that the effect of that practice leads to instability, degeneration of the Dharma, insanity, nervous disorders/sickness and even violence.

In the case of those practicing extensively on Tara in the Buddhist tradition, you will find the opposite: across all lineages her practice has universally produced profound results and continual realization, and because of this there has not been any doubt about her true qualities.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

narraboth
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Re: Tara

Post by narraboth » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:31 pm

If you take tara as a goddess, naturally there is a possibility to doubt whether she's buddhist or hindu one.
but that's not the correct way to practice tara, my friend. You should think Tara as the combination of all buddha's compassion, wisdom and activities. Then no matter how she looks like, she is the representive of buddhas.

Tara exists in Hinduism, why not? Tara can be in any religion, as long as people need her in that form. So is Kordhikali, Malijiye, Vajrapani, Avalokesrivara etc etc. dhramakaya of Buddhas has no fixed form, you can't limited it to historical time and certain images. The major difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is not at their 'gods and goddess', you need to understand this properly.
The point is not about where the image of Tara is from, the point is how you understand what Tara is. Even if you believe that Tara is a Buddhist goddess, if you don't know the true essence of Buddhist Tara practice, you will only get the benefit of praying to a goddess. But if you know the correct way to recognise Tara, you get the benefit of practicing all Buddhas.

Saying this, still, Norden, your history understanding is limited. Probably you can do more investigation or read more. Buddhism as a believe raised in India, it uses a lot of Indian religion ideas and terms, especially in the prayers and praises. If you read praises to Buddha Shakyamuni, you probably will think that they are for some Hidu gods!

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Re: Tara

Post by pemachophel » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:53 pm

Thanks Narraboth. I was thinking of sharing these same thought yesterday about Tara's ultimate nature but didn't ever get to it. IMO, this is the bottom line of this discussion.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

K Tsomo
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Re: bloody Hindu Tara??

Post by K Tsomo » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:28 pm

udyan wrote:
Will wrote:
Norden wrote:Hi,

Can anyone explain to me about Tara / Green Tara?
We know Tara between Buddhism and Hinduism is different. From Hindu religion just like Kali she is called "She Who Likes Blood", "She Who Is Smeared with Blood" and "She Who Enjoys Blood Sacrifice". But not Tara in Buddhism. But can anyone explain why they share exactly the same Mantra? Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svaha. Who she really is? Thanks.
Give a source please for a "bloody" Hindu Tara mantra.
Not sure if its the same source used as I found. http://www.shivashakti.com/tara.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Some have attempted to separate the Hindu Tara from the Tibetan Tara, but there is little doubt that She is the same Devi. This is shown in a reference to Tara in the Hindu Tantrarajatantra, where Her mantra is given as Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svaha -- identical to the Tibetan version. Here Tara takes her form as Kurukulla."

In any case be it same mantra or not from what I understand Hindu Tara was derived from Buddhist Tara. I read about a Hindu story that shows that Tara came from Buddhism. One of Hindu sages who's practice was not going anywhere was told to recite Tara's mantra to help with that. He was told to travel to the region (China or Tibet) where only Visnu in his form as Buddha (Buddha is an avatar of Visnu in Hinduism) would be able to teach him proper method. Once there he received tantric teachings from Buddha and became a great practitioner.
Don't trust the site www.shivashakti.com! I'm coming from the cult behind the site. Materials, information is copied from books, mantras some found in books, some made up, and so on. It's the sect/cult I've been telling about. If yiu need hinduism, what better place is there than India? Let your experience be authentic!
Namaste!

SilenceMonkey
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Re: Tara

Post by SilenceMonkey » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:44 pm

Scholars seem to think Tara practice began in China.

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Re: Tara

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:03 am

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:44 pm
Scholars seem to think Tara practice began in China.
Citation please

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