Commitment Issues

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Dechen Norbu »

(edit: Namdrol-la posted meanwhile, so I'm answering Pema)

Ah, but I think that is for good practitioners. At least it's not for me. The contemplation of the 4 thoughts for only 58 days seems little to beings like me at least, but it's a nice schedule for the whole practice. I've been practicing for near 15 years and I'm still doing it everyday. It's like peeling an onion, tears included! :smile: And I realize my insight about them is still shallow and even then I'm easily distracted and it goes away. When I say this is a reminder to myself, I'm not playing humble, which I'm not. I really mean it. I need more contemplation about them. This doesn't mean others do, but those who feel their practice is irregular, may benefit from doing it, IMO. Contemplation brings insight and remaining in the insight makes it last longer and become deeper.
Malcolm
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Malcolm »

Dechen Norbu wrote:Pema,

Ah, but I think that is for good practitioners.

It's for any practitioner. Reading a bunch lists about hells does not help anyone. Kepp it tight and keep it personal, than it will have a real effect on one's continuum.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Dechen Norbu »

That's how I see it too, at least. I have to, otherwise I would be ignoring my experience. But perhaps it works for some who are better than me.
pemachophel
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by pemachophel »

Another approach is to say the ending prayers of each of the four chapters of WoMPT dealing with the Four Thoughts 100,000 times. Since they are each four lines long, this takes a good bit of time and allows for plenty of opportunity to really let the message sink in. I agree wholeheartedly with Namdrol that these topics have to become absolutely real and immediate to the practitioner. For sure it's essential that one personalizes these truths so they really do turn the mind away from samsara.

My original Teacher taught nothing but WoMPT three nights per week for at least seven years that I know of and probably longer. In fact, I don't know that He ever taught any other text. As His secretary for the first several years, I would have to type and retype each chapter, staying behind at night after our meetings were over. Because our meetings were in NYC and I was living in NJ, I usually caught the last bus out of Port Authority. That was back in the day of typewriters. So each time my Teacher wanted to revise something, I had to type the whole chapter from beginning to end on onion paper. Ican't tell you how many times I had to do this. Several years after that, one of our students had an early computer. My Teacher was still reworking His translation of WoMPT. When I saw how you could "erase" a word, a line, a paragraph, page with the computer, I was blown away. Nevertheless, all those late nights helped drill the Four Thoughts into my mind. I can't thank my Teacher enough for this.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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heart
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by heart »

Dechen Norbu wrote:Gaining insight about these 4 thoughts is half way to realization, IMO.
This is like an exact quote from a Dzogchen text by Sechen Gyltsab Rinpoche (Dilgo Khyentses root lama) translated by Erik as "Advice form old Vijaya". CNR teaches this text now and then.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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justsit
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by justsit »

For those who may not have the text of WOMPT, here are the four prayers Pemachopel referenced:

Although I have won these freedoms, I am poor in Dharma, which is their essence.
Although I have entered the Dharma, I waste time doing other things.
Bless me and foolish beings like me,
That we may attain the very essence of the freedoms and advantages. [of precious human birth}

Impermanence is everywhere, yet I still think things will last.
I have reached the gates of old age, yet I still pretend I am young.
Bless me and misguided beings like me
That we may truly understand impermanence.

I see that samsara is suffering, but crave it still.
I fear the abyss of the lower realms, but continue to do wrong.
Bless me and those who have gone astray like me
That we may sincerely renounce the things of this life.

I know all the details of karma, but I do not really believe it.
I have heard a lot of Dharma, but never put it into practice.
Bless me and evil-doers like me
That our minds may mingle with the Dharma.

Great practice, thanks! :thumbsup:
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Dechen Norbu »

heart wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Gaining insight about these 4 thoughts is half way to realization, IMO.
This is like an exact quote from a Dzogchen text by Sechen Gyltsab Rinpoche (Dilgo Khyentses root lama) translated by Erik as "Advice form old Vijaya". CNR teaches this text now and then.

/magnus
It must be an interesting piece of work. Thanks for the reference, Magnus. Maybe something is sinking in after all these years doing this practice. One can always hope! :lol:
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Dechen Norbu »

pemachophel wrote:Another approach is to say the ending prayers of each of the four chapters of WoMPT dealing with the Four Thoughts 100,000 times. Since they are each four lines long, this takes a good bit of time and allows for plenty of opportunity to really let the message sink in. I agree wholeheartedly with Namdrol that these topics have to become absolutely real and immediate to the practitioner. For sure it's essential that one personalizes these truths so they really do turn the mind away from samsara.

My original Teacher taught nothing but WoMPT three nights per week for at least seven years that I know of and probably longer. In fact, I don't know that He ever taught any other text. As His secretary for the first several years, I would have to type and retype each chapter, staying behind at night after our meetings were over. Because our meetings were in NYC and I was living in NJ, I usually caught the last bus out of Port Authority. That was back in the day of typewriters. So each time my Teacher wanted to revise something, I had to type the whole chapter from beginning to end on onion paper. Ican't tell you how many times I had to do this. Several years after that, one of our students had an early computer. My Teacher was still reworking His translation of WoMPT. When I saw how you could "erase" a word, a line, a paragraph, page with the computer, I was blown away. Nevertheless, all those late nights helped drill the Four Thoughts into my mind. I can't thank my Teacher enough for this.
That's a real blessing, Pema. :smile:
daelm
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by daelm »

Namdrol wrote: Keep it tight and keep it personal, than it will have a real effect on one's continuum.

:bow: :bow: :bow:
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heart
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by heart »

Dechen Norbu wrote:
heart wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Gaining insight about these 4 thoughts is half way to realization, IMO.
This is like an exact quote from a Dzogchen text by Sechen Gyltsab Rinpoche (Dilgo Khyentses root lama) translated by Erik as "Advice form old Vijaya". CNR teaches this text now and then.

/magnus
It must be an interesting piece of work. Thanks for the reference, Magnus. Maybe something is sinking in after all these years doing this practice. One can always hope! :lol:
It is quite wonderful, unfortunately it is restricted. You should ask CNR for the teachings on that text in Portugal.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:54 pm Imagine that the worst thing possible has happened to you and you are totally freaked out. You are in unbearable pain. The Guru to Whom you cry out in unfeigned, gut-wrenching anguish and supplication is your Root Guru. When push comes to shove, this is the Guru in Whom you have the greatest faith. In my opinion, all else is merely intellectualizing. It's gotta come from the heart, not just the mind.

What if you were thinking of ending it all....and you were drinking alcohol & getting ready to pop a bunch of pills....and out of nowhere this guru contacts you then & there (on Messenger).....this happened to me. The guru is not Buddhist. I don't know what he is. (he's a yogi)...maybe Hindu. Not only that....but after i took refuge, a very Hindu thing happen to me (while i was meditating the next day)..... :alien:


Other than that...I think i just cry out to Buddha (Sakyamuni)...he answered my prayer when i decided to take refuge & needed a teacher...

As far as COMMITMENT (The OP) goes.....i just wanna take it slow & easy......i am not interested in any ritualistic stuff....i don't care about becoming a Tibetan anymore.....i just want to incorporate the Wisdom of the Mahasiddha's in my everyday life, yet be free and live my life & enjoy life the best i can. I have always had a great love in my heart for others.
pemachophel
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by pemachophel »

some people think the vajrayana is the only way to go. but it's very dangerous if one doesn't do it right. the sutra mahayana is also extraordinarily wonderful and doesn't have the danger. you also don't need a guru in the same way, just a spiritual friend. since you have devotion to shakyamuni buddha, why not hang out with that until you feel you want more? there's nothing wrong with that and also not dangerous.

good luck n best wishes. sorry for one-handed typing.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
PeterC
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by PeterC »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:05 pm ... Did half a Ngondro. Got dissatisfied because my Lama hasn't been to the West in over 3 yrs now. ...
Success in most areas of life has a lot to do with persistence. Were it me, irrespective of which lama you eventually follow, I would finish the LN ngondro. There is real value to making a commitment to finish anything you start - that also ensures that you only take on practices when you intend to do them seriously. And even if you don’t go further with the LN, saying a few mantras and doing a few prostrations can’t hurt, can it?
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:39 pm some people think the vajrayana is the only way to go. but it's very dangerous if one doesn't do it right. the sutra mahayana is also extraordinarily wonderful and doesn't have the danger. you also don't need a guru in the same way, just a spiritual friend. since you have devotion to shakyamuni buddha, why not hang out with that until you feel you want more? there's nothing wrong with that and also not dangerous.

good luck n best wishes. sorry for one-handed typing.

Yes. I have no desire for HYT. I like it simple and basic. Life is complicated/dangerous enough (i think it's my ngondro.) I do not do well in a rigid format. I love to study on my own. i love to be alone . I have no ambition. I love my teacher. I love peacefulness. I love freedom. I hate too many rules. I hate cliques & politics.


Thank you Pema...

:namaste:




(Why did you have to type with one hand ????)
Arnoud
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Arnoud »

PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:25 am
Arnoud wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:05 pm ... Did half a Ngondro. Got dissatisfied because my Lama hasn't been to the West in over 3 yrs now. ...
Success in most areas of life has a lot to do with persistence. Were it me, irrespective of which lama you eventually follow, I would finish the LN ngondro. There is real value to making a commitment to finish anything you start - that also ensures that you only take on practices when you intend to do them seriously. And even if you don’t go further with the LN, saying a few mantras and doing a few prostrations can’t hurt, can it?
I did. Just still a few prostrations left. Rest is done.
fckw
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by fckw »

I believe it's a little bit like a love relationship. You get to know someone, you fall in love. In the beginning you're so enthusiastic about the other person, that really all you want is to be together with that person. Then, at some point it cools down. You get your first disappointments - or maybe rather: disillusionments. Then, your first argument. Question is if after that moment there's the possibility for another level of understanding. Assuming there is, then your love relationship changes into something less romantic, but maybe deeper: a real partnership. You discover the depths of the other person. Sooner or later you experience phases of anger. revulsion etc. Also this may go away again. After a long time you develop a certain deeper level of understanding of your partner: s/he is just another human being. Like you struggling to find their way. And so on.

Same with practice.

Perhaps there's really a deeper kind of commitment than "doing your given practice every day otherwise you end up in hell".

(By the way, to all those who you love to say: "in the kali-yuga" or "in these days" or "in the west". It has never been different anywhere in the whole world, and will never be different. Most Tibetans don't give sh* about Buddhist teachers, or if they do, they practice superficially, mainly paying monks/nuns for doing a few rituals for them. Same same everywhere in the world.)
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