Commitment Issues

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ronnewmexico
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:11 pm

C...you started this thread wanting to know what we think, not that you would subject each of our statements to qualification as to what was true not true nor probable nor not probable. ASking for qualification or what one means is differeing than disputing or debating points mentioned, found true or not true.

I find that a bit odd and suggest thusly addressed the correct place for this post should be dharma debate or discussion. I would probably not have participated if it was in that place.

I personally persisted with point as the thread has continued, and others commented and other interesting points were made.

YOur ego comment to me is this..."Wow, seven years. Did you take that long? That sounds pretty impressive. "

I find little to be impressed in taking seven years to find a teacher. I cannot find a quote of tibetan teacher of dharma in tibetan buddhism with lineage stateing that, as I don't have that book before me, but I know it or something very close to that(the actual years may vary to my opinion due to faulted recollection or actual variance in statement,and I infer that in intial post) is found in Tibetan Buddhism.
The scholors of course will not respond to affirm that as fact..... but nevertheless, it is true and stated by others with official lineage transmission responsibility. My source if I bothered to look for it is HHDL to my very dim recollection, that is most probably who it came from for me.

If I had the time and thought it would make a whit of difference I would produce a quote approximating that.
Impessed....I am accomplished, I can walk through walls, I can put my footprints in stone, I can read minds, I can see the future............that I would expect would sound impressive. Seven years to find a teacher..that is a reach to suggest that impresses anyone.

So continue, I probably will not, I find no point in debating this issue but have answered one of your questions. But please do if that is your wont.
That is how I read it and have answered.
I am but a uneducated layperson who probably could be called not even a buddhist, as only I derive tools from buddhism to use, but nevertheless have taken time and effort to produce a product of what I think that is of course not perfect but OK from someone like me to do.
Comments upon my personal practice I generally will not do in a public forum unless they serve some very needed point.
If you have questions about my personal practice PM me and I may answer.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Arnoud
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Arnoud » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:37 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:C...you started this thread wanting to know what we think, not that you would subject each of our statements to qualification as to what was true not true nor probable nor not probable. ASking for qualification or what one means is differeing than disputing or debating points mentioned, found true or not true.
Interesting. I thought people would appreciate it if I ask follow-up questions to show I actually took the time to read their comments. From my point of view, that is not a debate at all. I think you should be aware that I am not a native speaker and have quite a bit of trouble understanding your English, so maybe that is where the misunderstanding is coming from. Anyway, please point where I dispute your points or debate them.
I find that a bit odd and suggest thusly addressed the correct place for this post should be dharma debate or discussion. I would probably not have participated if it was in that place.
I did not intend to debate anyone's answers. Please show me where I did.
I personally persisted with point as the thread has continued, and others commented and other interesting points were made.
I agree that interesting points were made.
YOur ego comment to me is this..."Wow, seven years. Did you take that long? That sounds pretty impressive. "

I find little to be impressed in taking seven years to find a teacher. I cannot find a quote of tibetan teacher of dharma in tibetan buddhism with lineage stateing that, as I don't have that book before me, but I know it or something very close to that(the actual years may vary to my opinion due to faulted recollection or actual variance in statement,and I infer that in intial post) is found in Tibetan Buddhism.
The scholors of course will not respond to affirm that as fact..... but nevertheless, it is true and stated by others with official lineage transmission responsibility. My source if I bothered to look for it is HHDL to my very dim recollection, that is most probably who it came from for me.
I will tell you why I do find it impressive. Of all the Tibetan Buddhists I know, NONE has taken 7 years to find a teacher. Most go to find one, practie a little, stay or move on. Maybe we have different ideas about what finding and searching for a teachers means. To me, I took it to mean to search for 7 yrs, not committing or taking empowerments until one is sure. Like what Milarepa was forced to do.
If I had the time and thought it would make a whit of difference I would produce a quote approximating that.
Impessed....I am accomplished, I can walk through walls, I can put my footprints in stone, I can read minds, I can see the future............that I would expect would sound impressive. Seven years to find a teacher..that is a reach to suggest that impresses anyone.
Well, seeing how easily you get annoyed by just this thread, I already figured you can't walk through walls or fly.
So continue, I probably will not, I find no point in debating this issue but have answered one of your questions. But please do if that is your wont.
That is how I read it and have answered.
Yes, and i think you misunderstood my questions for arguments. Makes me wonder if you are a non-native speaker as well.
I am but a uneducated layperson who probably could be called not even a buddhist, as only I derive tools from buddhism to use, but nevertheless have taken time and effort to produce a product of what I think that is of course not perfect but OK from someone like me to do.
And I appreciate it even though I don't like the tone the exchange has taken.
Comments upon my personal practice I generally will not do in a public forum unless they serve some very needed point.
If you have questions about my personal practice PM me and I may answer.
Thanks.

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ronnewmexico
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:11 pm

Really this..."Well, seeing how easily you get annoyed by just this thread, I already figured you can't walk through walls or fly."

is a personal comment. Nonnative english speaker or not this is a personal comment of a presumptive nature.
Your presumption of my annoyance really has no basis in the issue of finding a teacher or committing nor real relevence.
And it is a presumption..... it is not that you know me, my culture, nor even my true name.

To my opinion there may be a difficulty wtth communication and this may surely be partially to my side being not the greatest of communciators.
But if one wants(I entertain this digression as you the intial poster has entertained it) to find out a thing and asks how people think about it surely we may ask for qualification and what one means by this or that. But to state well this is not a good idea or I find this not true may be a different issue entirely.

It is rude and impolite when asking what one thinks of a thing to then overtly criticize what is given in response.
If one says.............. well I want to debate this issue, that is fine and right. If one engages, one then is flying under the flag of that ship of debate or discussion. If one says...what does one think, and then one states in response very many reasons why one thinks that not true....that is a debate.

So in that context it is rude and inappropriate. LIke a bait and switch salesperson may do such a thing.
It is all in how a thing is stated. If I thought someone was getting annoyed I don''t presumptionusly state...you are getting annoyed, I state I didn't mean to annoy you if I am doing so. That allows for a variance. WE really don't know peoples here, and what may annoy or not annoy them, so we can say things with some leeway to allow or not allow.
It seems this way but may not be.
Such is the thing. I want your opinion or thinking on a thing. I may find what I consider to be obvious faults in logic or other fault but as someone has taken the time and effort to render a response to a asking for help in a thing it is not responded to in the same fashion as if what is put out is.....I want to debate taking of a guru or commitments what constitutes them.

So that's my opinion on this digression of topic. It may have to do with the language and a bit on my side as being not a great communicator, but I think it is also in how this thing has been presented.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Arnoud » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:25 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Really this..."Well, seeing how easily you get annoyed by just this thread, I already figured you can't walk through walls or fly."

is a personal comment. Nonnative english speaker or not this is a personal comment of a presumptive nature.
Your presumption of my annoyance really has no basis in the issue of finding a teacher or committing nor real relevence.
And it is a presumption..... it is not that you know me, my culture, nor even my true name.

To my opinion there may be a difficulty wtth communication and this may surely be partially to my side being not the greatest of communciators.
But if one wants(I entertain this digression as you the intial poster has entertained it) to find out a thing and asks how people think about it surely we may ask for qualification and what one means by this or that. But to state well this is not a good idea or I find this not true may be a different issue entirely.

It is rude and impolite when asking what one thinks of a thing to then overtly criticize what is given in response.
If one says.............. well I want to debate this issue, that is fine and right. If one engages, one then is flying under the flag of that ship of debate or discussion. If one says...what does one think, and then one states in response very many reasons why one thinks that not true....that is a debate.

So in that context it is rude and inappropriate. LIke a bait and switch salesperson may do such a thing.
It is all in how a thing is stated. If I thought someone was getting annoyed I don''t presumptionusly state...you are getting annoyed, I state I didn't mean to annoy you if I am doing so. That allows for a variance. WE really don't know peoples here, and what may annoy or not annoy them, so we can say things with some leeway to allow or not allow.
It seems this way but may not be.
Such is the thing. I want your opinion or thinking on a thing. I may find what I consider to be obvious faults in logic or other fault but as someone has taken the time and effort to render a response to a asking for help in a thing it is not responded to in the same fashion as if what is put out is.....I want to debate taking of a guru or commitments what constitutes them.

So that's my opinion on this digression of topic. It may have to do with the language and a bit on my side as being not a great communicator, but I think it is also in how this thing has been presented.
Well, in all honesty, I just wrote a reply to just move on, but I will address your points once again. But, first I will apologize for the above quote about walking through walls.
Now, let me explain once again my idea of this thread. I ask a perfectly sincere question (hard to remember the time I actually put something personal on a forum), to which a number of people reply. You are one of those. I ask you, among others, a follow-up question, to which you respond in a rather derogatory and accusatory manner. To which I then responded with a question for examples of WHERE exactly I debated your answer (I even provided explanation of what I thought was your misunderstanding of my intention).
Ah, what the heck. Let me get to my initial response. All the best and let's just agree that we can't come to a fruitful exchange on this thread.
Adios

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ronnewmexico
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:28 pm

OK
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

rai
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by rai » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:26 pm

Namdrol wrote: Most people have this idea that their root guru is the one who gives them their main practice. That is not true. The root guru is the one who gives someone their understanding of the nature of their mind, which is what makes all practices fruitional.

N
1. Would the root guru be the one who gives the very first glimps of the nature of mind or the one who gives deeper understading of the nature of mind?
2. Can someone have more than one root guru?

Thanks

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by pemachophel » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:45 pm

Tai Situ Rinpoche on Root Gurus:

What exactly Is a "Tsa-wa i Lama" or "Root-Guru"?

There are several forms of Tsa-wa i Lama but we need only discuss the two most important ones here. The first form of Tsa-wa i Lama is the head of the particular school of Tibetan Buddhism that you are considering joining. The heads of that school can be traced right back for many centuries and this is called "The Lineage". The head of the Karma Kagyu School of Tibetan Buddhism is His Holiness, Urgyen Thrinley, the XVII Gyalwa Karmapa. You could say that the heads of the schools hold a similar position to that of the heads of the Christian orders of the Benedictine or Franciscan monks. The second form is the Lama (who may or may not have the title of Rinpoche) under whose guidance you feel you can learn most and travel furthest. It Is someone for whom you have total respect; the person you turn to in need; someone you can follow without doubt or hesitation - whose words "enter your bones". It is the person who helps you most to realize the true nature of your mind. This Tsa-wa i-Lama will be your strongest connection with the Dharma.

From http://www.ncf.net/guru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Josef » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:05 pm

rai wrote: 2. Can someone have more than one root guru?

Thanks
Yes.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:14 pm

Nangwa wrote:
rai wrote: 2. Can someone have more than one root guru?

Thanks
Yes.
I think the technical term is 'polygurufic'.
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Paul
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Paul » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:28 pm

rai wrote:
Namdrol wrote: Most people have this idea that their root guru is the one who gives them their main practice. That is not true. The root guru is the one who gives someone their understanding of the nature of their mind, which is what makes all practices fruitional.

N
1. Would the root guru be the one who gives the very first glimps of the nature of mind or the one who gives deeper understading of the nature of mind?
2. Can someone have more than one root guru?

Thanks
I certainly consider that I have two, maybe three root teachers.

I'm not sure that's - ahem - "allowed", but it's how I feel about how my experience/understanding is heavily reliant on the combined teachings of these gurus.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

rai
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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by rai » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:25 pm

interesting. i had this strange idea that the root guru is the one who gives you the very first glimpse of the nature of mind, even if it stays one second. it would mean that one could have only one root guru :/

so to use the example if someone has attended 6 Dzogchen/Mahamudra teachers and each time had some experience then all of them are his root gurus?

or let says the 5th teacher gave him the most accurate instructions then the 5th one would be his root guru?

sorry if these are silly questions. it just confuses me a little

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:43 am

Your root guru(s) are the teachers that most clearly give you a direct understanding of your condition.
I have two for instance. I have had a lot of experiences with a bunch of other teachers but for me two of them are quite clearly the ones who have made the most direct and clear impact on my life.
Sometimes its a surprise, sometimes its obvious.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by pemachophel » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:54 pm

Imagine that the worst thing possible has happened to you and you are totally freaked out. You are in unbearable pain. The Guru to Whom you cry out in unfeigned, gut-wrenching anguish and supplication is your Root Guru. When push comes to shove, this is the Guru in Whom you have the greatest faith. In my opinion, all else is merely intellectualizing. It's gotta come from the heart, not just the mind.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by florin » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:15 pm

Are these correct?
1.You can pray to your guru using you own words .
2.When you pray to him you can visualise(imagine) him in his own form.
3.You can pray to your guru for gaining wisdom,achieving enlightenment in this life,inspiration,strength,courage,faith,determination...
4.you can pray to your guru to show you how to practice correctly.

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Josef » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:20 pm

alpha wrote:Are these correct?
1.You can pray to your guru using you own words .
2.When you pray to him you can visualise(imagine) him in his own form.
3.You can pray to your guru for gaining wisdom,achieving enlightenment in this life,inspiration,strength,courage,faith,determination...
4.you can pray to your guru to show you how to practice correctly.
Sure.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by daelm » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:35 pm

Clarence wrote:No, not to my wife. :smile:

I was wondering if some people have serious experiences and maybe some good takes on how I approach this path.

How come it feels as if I can't commit to 1 path/teacher/tradition? It seems like I start out excited, practice seriously for while, get some experience, then become dissatisfied, stop the practice. Then I look somewhere else to start again. Only to go through the whole sequence again. Now, I really only started practicing in the Lonchen Nyinthig tradition. Did half a Ngondro. Got dissatisfied because my Lama hasn't been to the West in over 3 yrs now. Then I was looking at CNN's teachings. Listened to his podcasts. Became a member. Still interested, but when studying his books I just figure out how to do the practices properly.
So, what could cause this? Just haven't met my Root Lama yet? Karma?
I don't want to live the next 40 to 50 years just digging at the different places never getting any deeper than 4 inches below surface.

Let me know what you think,

Many thanks,

- C
long dead question, but anyway...

in the Kagyu tradition, as it has been held in the West, this has been ascribed to the students not being steeped in the 4 Thoughts That Turn the Mind (4 Ordinary Preliminaries). so there's a renewed focus - in the Karma Kagyu - on bedding that set down. (i was told this arose from question asked about why there are few to zero Western yogi's after a couple of decades of transmission. the thinking is that people rushed the building without secure foundations.)

anyway. that's what i was told. maybe i should have started this reply with "thus I have heard..." :)

so, maybe Clarence should consider taking a few years out to soften the heart with these 4 thoughts. i know it's something that works for me.

d

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by pemachophel » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:08 pm

d, :good:

Four decades in and looking at myself and other American Buddhists, I think your assessment is absolutely correct. Pickling oneself in the Lo-do Nam-shi is the single most important thing a practitioner can do short of realization. If one really has a moment-to-moment appreciation for the Four Thoughts, one's practice will be strong and continuous, hindrances are seen for what they are, and all other good qualities and understandings blossom forth. For me, among these four, remembering death and impermanence is what gets the job done.

When I see people whose practice is weak and vacillating, I know that they were never properly trained in the Lo-do Nam-shi. There is a reason these four thoughts are taught first before even taking refuge and developing Bodhicitta. As you say, without these as the foundation of one's practice, the edifice of one's faith is built on shifting sands.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Dechen Norbu » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:53 am

I believe most of the problem is that once one has an intellectual grasping of the 4 thoughts, one thinks one doesn't need to spend much more time with them.
I'm not sure if this doesn't come from the confusion regarding the practical difference between the wisdom of hearing and the wisdom of contemplating. We may learn the 4 thoughts, but we need to spend a lot of time on them so that they go from the head to the heart. Then, most likely, one can start growing roots in Dharma practice. Gaining insight about these 4 thoughts is half way to realization, IMO. Although they seem "beginners" material, it's through them that the wheat gets separated from the chaff, those that will practice steadily from those that will not. One thing is knowing them, another is taking them seriously. How one goes from the first to the second has a world to it and I'm not sure if in the end it isn't also very dependent on one's karma. Not wanting to be a fatalist here by any means, but this is not a clear and cut process, the why of some getting the importance of the 4 thoughts while others don't (even if they know them perfectly). This serves as a reminder to myself... :smile:

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by pemachophel » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:55 pm

In Chatral Rinpoche's system of 100-day mind training as part of the Longchen Nyingthig ngon-dro, one spends 58 days in retreat contemplating the Four Thoughts plus the benefits of Liberation and how to rely on the Guru as well as repeating the Refuge prayer 111,111 times. In this case, it is specified how many days (1-3) to spend contemplating each subheading as described in Words of My Perfect Teacher.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Commitment Issues

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:18 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I believe most of the problem is that once one has an intellectual grasping of the 4 thoughts, one thinks one doesn't need to spend much more time with them.
The basic problem with the four thoughts is that they are presented in very meideval language and people become expert in artificial contemplations that do not reach their heart.

You are going to die, sooner rather than later.
Your friends and family are leaving you right now, not at some later time.
Right now you could be practicing dharma, but you are wasting your time with worldly foolishness [jobs, families, car payments]
There is no happiness, anywhere. Don't delude yourself that there is.
All your present happiness and suffering is a result of karma. If you do not want to suffer in future, practice Dharma.

We all know the above are true, and we all make tons of excuses for not doing anything about it.

If you are not in tears from practicing the above, your contemplation is not working into your heart.

N
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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