Views on Dharma clothes

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Inge
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Inge » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:... Societies are biological entities that use all available resources until they are exhausted. Then they die and something else comes along to feed off of the corpse. ...
Do they have an identity, a sense of "I"?

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Malcolm
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:52 pm

Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:... Societies are biological entities that use all available resources until they are exhausted. Then they die and something else comes along to feed off of the corpse. ...
Do they have an identity, a sense of "I"?
No more than a plant does.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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gnegirl
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by gnegirl » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:57 pm

pemachophel wrote:COf course, if one is wearing such costumes to aggrandize their ego, that's a wrong motivation. No argument there. But, in my experience, most of the time when I hear criticism of wearing "robes," I have the feeling of a lack of total commitment to the path. In Asia, it is common to see people wearing Dharma costumes of many types. Here, not so much. I worry that that reticence is symptomatic of a sense of reservation, a holding back from a total surrender to the Dharma on the one hand and a premature, purely conceptual jumping to a high level of one taste on the other, i.e., the fox attempting to follow the lion's leap.

Sorry if my musings offend anyone -- not my intention. I've been mulling these thoughts over since spending time in Boudha where everyone is walking around with malas (and/or prayer wheels) in hand and wearing this or that Dharma costume, pin, amulet, picture, etc. I think there is a definite reason why Lamas such as Chagdud Rinpoche, Jigme Tromge, Tulku Sang-ngak, Garab Rinpoche, Namkha Rinpoche, Khenpo Konchog Monlam, and Lama Dawa Chodrak all encourage/d their Western students to wear Dharma costumes during ceremonies, drubchen, etc. More than 40 years ago, Chatral Rinppche directed the sangha to which I then belonged to wear zens. So A) I follow the Guru's command and B) I've grown up comfortable in that "skin." Nevertheless, I encourage other Western practitioners to consider the benefits of such costumes and to take a second look at their motivation if they find themselves inimical to that practice. That seond look may be revealing regardless of whether or not one ever wears such a costume. :buddha1:
personally, i prefer the details of my practise remain a secret. as i understand it, i could wear some sort of costume, but instead i prefer to wear neat conservative western clothes. why? i'm an inji, and i want people to not see me as separate from them, but as one of them, even tho from a spiritual point of view, if they knew what i practised, they would see me as 'out there' from the typical christian western view. I want to be approachable.

the true outward expression of the practise is compassion, and wisdom, what else do we need?

On the other hand when i see other injis in robes, if that helps their practise, then its something i'm happy about.

I encountered a group of other vajrayana folks who wore western priestly collars once instead of zens. That was different....i dont remember their lineage now, but i gave then kudos for trying to adapt.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

Silent Bob
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Silent Bob » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:59 am

Whatever others decide to wear is of no concern to me, but personally, I already have enough silly affectations of my own without taking on any new ones.

Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:... Societies are biological entities that use all available resources until they are exhausted. Then they die and something else comes along to feed off of the corpse. ...
Do they have an identity, a sense of "I"?
No more than a plant does.
Hm, societies have no karma of their own?

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Malcolm
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:11 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Hm, societies have no karma of their own?
Nope.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:53 pm

The closest thing to collective or social karma I've ever seen, can be found in Jamgon Mipham "Gateway to Knowledge Vol II" Rangjung Yeshe Publications. There are two points where something relevant is expressed:
"[9,2] How do they originate? All bengs are born from karmic causes. The abodes are created by the 'shared karma of appearances', while the individual bodies, pleasure and pain are created by the 'unshared karma of experiences." p103

"[9,85]Morever, understand the manner in which all those who collectively entertain an intention, either positive or negative, such as waging war and so forth, will obtain the same result even though there is but a single doer. If one rejoices in any virtuous or evil [action], one will achieve [a result] similar to the doer; if one subsequently feels regret, any virtuous or evil [action] will be exhausted; if one is skilled in means, even a great misdeed can be quickly purified and even a tiny virtuous root can be magnified immeasurably." p120
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The closest thing to collective or social karma I've ever seen, can be found in Jamgon Mipham "Gateway to Knowledge Vol II" Rangjung Yeshe Publications.
Nevertheless, all of this action is individually engaged in and accumulated. Nations, states, towns, cities, villages, and hamlets do not have their own karma, so to speak.

N
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:29 pm

You won't see me disagreeing with you on this point. I think that even in the abovementioned text that this is obvious.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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ronnewmexico
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Well this seems rather remote from point, but it has been introduced....do we have karmas of our own really?

Societies it can be rightly stated have no karmas of their own, presenting but with peoples of similiar predispositions at the perceived same place and time.
But as societies are but composite of numerous selfs are not humans composties of numerous aspects of awareness also and thusly are not both not really are our karmas personal?

It seems karma results from a faulted apprehension of sorts. If one is to allow the notion of karma as being faulted in inception it holding no true or absolute nature can be found to be not what it is but as such things are in how they appear.
AS such appears not also individual karma or karmic result but group karma or group result.

REmote from point however.....
Perhaps there is a simple one word refute to this or a term in sanscrit or some such whose mere utterance refutes this point....
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

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Grigoris
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:34 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Well this seems rather remote from point, but it has been introduced....do we have karmas of our own really?
Of course we do otherwise individual liberation could not occur and karma would have no vipakka (nihilism). Of course it doesn't otherwise the self would truly exist and we would have no capacity to alter our future through our action since our existence would not be conditioned (eternalism).
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by ronnewmexico » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:21 pm

Yes, certainly I agree with both.

Stateing there exists no societal karma, group karma, seems to disallow the second.
Such presents with appearence of things as we percieve them.
All in america perhaps as but example..... don't see the heinous actions of their government and the actions of their government in things of the economic upon others as but a common not seeing. A common act of not seeing or knowing a thing for purpose.
They also do eat things from group harvest of sorts which produce great harm but see not that harm.
So we have a commonality of basis for action in the not seeing things for purpose. I would say that is a common karmic tendency in those peoples. It is a action and probably a habitually ingrained one. Not all but most, and pretty purvasive is this condition of nonseeing for purpose. Once tendency is present it presents in action.
.
Defined we find karma to be not just the first but also the second.
So leaving the strict defintiions we find group and societal karmas as well.
So I think it is a bit misleading to state there exists no group or societal karma as karma always refers to a individual.
No individual does exist so as such may not be found we cannnot state in such strict terms karma arises from the individual.
But certainly it appears it always presents this way and draws from individual notion.

To that extent the group karma extends as group notion from a individual basis. So it exists in that manner as real as individual karma for group.
In appearence not as real thing.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

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gnegirl
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by gnegirl » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:07 pm

How'd we get from fashion to group karma??
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Starglade » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:27 pm

gnegirl wrote:How'd we get from fashion to group karma??
I think it was somewhere on page 3, with the discussion of cultural and societal influences on practitioners' decisions to wear/not wear dharma clothes.

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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:38 pm

Generally speaking, for me it's all about comfort... At home, I'll typically wear a comfy t-shirt and this awesome pair of flannel pajama pants or this pair of basketball shorts that are comfortable. On the 10th and 25th tsog days, though, I generally wear a maroon dranjur (Tibetan meditation skirt), a blue, white, or maroon t-shirt, and the striped zen when doing the tsog.

On retreat, I prefer to wear the dranjur the whole time - it's super comfortable and allows lots of airflow which can be especially important if the retreat is during the summer. It's just nice and simple and comfortable. And if it's group retreat, one of my lamas has encouraged us to all wear the maroon dranjur or at least maroon clothing in general as having the whole group of practitioners dress alike in clothing designed for Dharma practice potentially has the powerful effect of impressing on one the sense of solidarity as one mandala and of one's purpose in being there practicing together. It also dampens any notions of higher or lower or differences, and seeing each other dressed in that way is just one more trigger to remind one not to be distracted and to uphold the proper conduct, strengthening those skills which then spill over into post-retreat when one is living and interacting with others out in the world. That's how it seems to me, at least.

But how I dress during special occasions and retreat would really depend on circumstances. At the main centers I attend, people wouldn't give it a second thought to see a western practitioner in "Dharma clothes." But if I were attending one of ChNN's centers, for instance, it seems like it would be more appropriate to just wear comfortable western style clothes and blend in that way. If I'm gonna be among people who I know aren't in the habit of wearing "Dharma clothes" and who might think that my wearing them means I'm somehow more special and set apart from them, then I'd prefer to just dress just like them and avoid all that and quietly go about my business.

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Malcolm
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:55 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote: But if I were attending one of ChNN's centers, for instance, it seems like it would be more appropriate to just wear comfortable western style clothes and blend in that way.
Yes, wearing Ngagpa gear is sure to provoke stares and eye-rolling. Of course, you can wear Vajra dance supervira costume if you are a vajra dancer and no one will blink.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote: But if I were attending one of ChNN's centers, for instance, it seems like it would be more appropriate to just wear comfortable western style clothes and blend in that way.
Yes, wearing Ngagpa gear is sure to provoke stares and eye-rolling. Of course, you can wear Vajra dance supervira costume if you are a vajra dancer and no one will blink.
Haha

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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:28 am

I would have to say that the positive aspect of getting everybody to wear Dharma clothes (especially the pants/skirt) is the fact that no one will turn up wearing hot pants or super mini skirts which can be awfully distracting for a lusty character such as myself! Boy have I seen some super sexy clothing at Dharma centres over the past few years! :pig: <--- that's me the chauvanist pig
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Sönam
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Sönam » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:31 am

Namdrol wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote: But if I were attending one of ChNN's centers, for instance, it seems like it would be more appropriate to just wear comfortable western style clothes and blend in that way.
Yes, wearing Ngagpa gear is sure to provoke stares and eye-rolling. Of course, you can wear Vajra dance supervira costume if you are a vajra dancer and no one will blink.
I saw a full equiped Ngagpa, young tibetan, waiting in the line to touch few words with Rinpoche. When it came to his turn, he starts to prostrate before coming near the master. Rinpoche did ask him to come near (before he ended his prostrations) ... showing some irritation.

just for the record ...
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Malcolm
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Re: Views on Dharma clothes

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:49 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I would have to say that the positive aspect of getting everybody to wear Dharma clothes (especially the pants/skirt) is the fact that no one will turn up wearing hot pants or super mini skirts which can be awfully distracting for a lusty character such as myself! Boy have I seen some super sexy clothing at Dharma centres over the past few years! :pig: <--- that's me the chauvanist pig
Consider an offering, sense object goddesses making offering to sense organ god.

N
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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