WOMPT & Sex

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Pema Rigdzin
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:53 am

Virgo wrote:SEX

What is sexual desire? It is nothing more than attachment, attachment to sense objects. We want the pleasurable sensations and we are attached to them. We get sucked in by the eye, and desire forms and so on. If we want to feel someones arms around us, we are attached to sensation via the body door, and the mind door. All in all, it is just attachment, nothing else. Attachment to eating food in the morning, for the desirable taste through the tongue door, and desire for our bodies to live long-- It's the same as sex. All attachment has the same flavour-- just attachment, nothing more, nothing less. Renouncing desire never eradicates or eliminates it. It is only eradicated when penetrated with wisdom, fully. Even a Hinayana practitioner can penetrate attachment and every thing else while engaging in it. That is why there were so many lay Buddhists of the Four Degrees of Enlightenment during the Buddha's time (there were many). As tantrikas, we can use this attachment as a beautiful tool, a tool to turn our afflictions into wisdoms of a Buddha, since this sphere and the Buddha's sphere really isn't different.

Kevin
yes, yes, this is all true... But are you telling me that while getting it on with your hot and sexy partner, you don't also feel a strong desire to say "the hell with being mindful of pure recollection or being in rigpa... I don't wanna be mindful or give a damn about transmuting or self-liberating anything, I just wanna f*&^% and experience this in all its dualistic, delusional hotness"? I know I do... But I make an effort to do the right thing. And hey, in terms of immediate mundane benefit, at least relaxing into instant presence during sex can help a guy last longer haha.

Malcolm
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:00 pm

If you are a lay tantric practitioner you need to practice the yoga of passion, perceving yourself as a heruka and your partner as a dakini (for example, Kalacakra and Vishvamata). The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.

As far as which orifice, etc., this is mainly a sutrayāna affair. There are no restrictions for a practitioner practicing the yoga of passion. The body of a deity is completely pure.


N

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Nemo
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Nemo » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:18 pm

I am curious how bad it is.
Idle talk agaitates the winds, too much sun, wanting a facy car, a very heavy meal or arguing with your mate. I am just wondering how to put this in perspective. If my partner really wants something I will probably give it to her.

To be blunt, isn't an argument with your mate and making them feel unwanted worse than the agitation caused by certain forms of unconventional sex?

wayland
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by wayland » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.
Hi Namdrol,
Isn't it the case that emission of semen expels the 'essence' of deities which reside at points within the subtle body of the practitioner? Does it not contravene tantric vows?
:namaste:

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Kelwin
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Kelwin » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:If you are a lay tantric practitioner you need to practice the yoga of passion, perceving yourself as a heruka and your partner as a dakini (for example, Kalacakra and Vishvamata). The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.

As far as which orifice, etc., this is mainly a sutrayāna affair. There are no restrictions for a practitioner practicing the yoga of passion. The body of a deity is completely pure.


N
Hi Namdrol,

That answer makes a lot of sense to me, excellent. However, 3 questions come up:

1) How would you respond to Adamantine saying earlier that 'If I understand and remember correctly one of the tantric vows involves avoiding falling into the trap of pretending one or one's partner is deity and thinking of ordinary sex as leading to enlightenment, etc..' ?

2) If the yoga of passion (which is a new term to me) is creation stage only, does this answer still apply for those doing completion stage practices?

3) Would the choice of orifice not have a significant effect on inner energies being exchanged?

Thank you,
Kelwin
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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heart
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by heart » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:If you are a lay tantric practitioner you need to practice the yoga of passion, perceving yourself as a heruka and your partner as a dakini (for example, Kalacakra and Vishvamata). The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.

As far as which orifice, etc., this is mainly a sutrayāna affair. There are no restrictions for a practitioner practicing the yoga of passion. The body of a deity is completely pure.


N
If you are able to continuously visualize yourself and your partner as Kalacakra and Vishvamata during intercourse that is actually perfect renunciation right there.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Malcolm
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:11 pm

wayland wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The yoga of passion is not connected with the completion stage, it is connected with the creation stage, so there is no need to worry about losing semen and so on.
Hi Namdrol,
Isn't it the case that emission of semen expels the 'essence' of deities which reside at points within the subtle body of the practitioner? Does it not contravene tantric vows?
:namaste:

No.If that were true, then defecation and urination would also be a problem. Semen, like feces and urine, is a waste product.

No, not in general. However if one is engaged in karma mudra practice and so on, it does. Tantric vows are different for people doing different practices.

Malcolm
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:13 pm

Kelwin wrote:
1) How would you respond to Adamantine saying earlier that 'If I understand and remember correctly one of the tantric vows involves avoiding falling into the trap of pretending one or one's partner is deity and thinking of ordinary sex as leading to enlightenment, etc..' ?
It is a branch downfall to regard a consort who has not been ripened by empowerment as deity.


2) If the yoga of passion (which is a new term to me) is creation stage only, does this answer still apply for those doing completion stage practices?

3) Would the choice of orifice not have a significant effect on inner energies being exchanged?
There is no "exchange" of energy in the yoga of passion.

The yoga of passion is a term from Lamdre, BTW. But it can be applied across the board to any anuttarayoga tantra practice. For example, in Cakrasamvara, ordinary intercourse without the three perceptions is a downfall.

N

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Kelwin
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Kelwin » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Namdrol wrote:It is a branch downfall to regard a consort who has not been ripened by empowerment as deity.
Yup, I know that, but I find that difficult to combine with other instructions. How could I possibly have sex in a state of awareness and not regard my girlfriend to be a deity? What distinction am I missing here?
There is no "exchange" of energy in the yoga of passion.
Ehm, isn't there always? When mingling fluids, breathing together, opening hearts and organs, etc?
The yoga of passion is a term from Lamdre, BTW. But it can be applied across the board to any anuttarayoga tantra practice. For example, in Cakrasamvara, ordinary intercourse without the three perceptions is a downfall.
Ok, that makes sense. Although I would then also believe that not seeing my partner as a deity is a minor downfall?

All the best,
Kelwin
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

Malcolm
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:24 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It is a branch downfall to regard a consort who has not been ripened by empowerment as deity.
Yup, I know that, but I find that difficult to combine with other instructions. How could I possibly have sex in a state of awareness and not regard my girlfriend to be a deity? What distinction am I missing here?
Ultimately it means that tantric Buddhists should not have sexual partners who are not also practitioners.

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Kelwin
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Kelwin » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It is a branch downfall to regard a consort who has not been ripened by empowerment as deity.
Yup, I know that, but I find that difficult to combine with other instructions. How could I possibly have sex in a state of awareness and not regard my girlfriend to be a deity? What distinction am I missing here?
Ultimately it means that tantric Buddhists should not have sexual partners who are not also practitioners.
Then it all makes sense. Thanks Namdrol!
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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Adamantine
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Adamantine » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:26 pm

My memory may be related specifically to the Kalachakra tantra vows... --as Namdrol pointed out vows from Chakrasamvara-- some systems are more unique than others and I couldn't comment on all of them. This from Berzin Archives explains a root downfall according to Kalachakra:
(5) Giving up bodhichitta

Corresponding to the common tantric root downfall of discarding the wish to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all, here we discard the subtle creative drops (thig-le) that allow us, through Kalachakra complete stage (rdzogs-rim) practice, to actualize that enlightenment through an unchanging blissful awareness (mi-'gyur-ba'i bde-ba). Such awareness is reached only upon manifesting clear light mental activity and generating it as a blissful awareness of voidness. After this most powerful tool is gained, an ever more stable basis for it is built within the central energy-channel by stacking there, through yoga methods, 21,600 subtle drops - corresponding to the number of Kalachakra hours in a year and breaths in a day. Once stacked, these invisible drops remain fixed in place until attaining enlightenment - which is why the supremely blissful awareness based on them is called "unchanging." Such awareness empowers the understanding of voidness with clear light mental activity to dispel, in stages, all instincts of confusion and winds of karma in the most efficient manner possible. These drops only disappear upon becoming a Buddha, since at that stage we no longer have the type of physical bodies that have subtle drops or a central channel.

Whether male or female, whenever we experience the release of energy that accompanies sexual orgasm - regardless of the emission of gross fluids - we lose subtle creative drops, called "bodhichitta" or "jasmine flower drops (Skt. kunda)." These drops form the basis for achieving unchanging blissful awareness. Since such release discards the most efficient means for achieving enlightenment, it is called "giving up bodhichitta." For this root downfall to be complete, however, we need to understand the nature of unchanging blissful awareness, yet release these subtle drops anyway - when there is no special need to do so - through any means, with the wish to attain enlightenment through the bliss of ordinary orgasmic emission. The four binding factors need not accompany this action.

Release of orgasmic energy or fluids in ordinary sexual acts does not constitute a tantric root downfall, so long as it is not regarded as something spiritual - specifically, as a means for attaining liberation or enlightenment. However, any experience of orgasmic release, regardless of how we view it, weakens the form we are trying to give to our lives with Kalachakra root tantric vows. It counters the purpose of trying to achieve enlightenment as quickly as possible through the Kalachakra method of unchanging blissful awareness.

It is important to be realistic, not melodramatic about this matter. Taking this vow does not mean having to remain childless or never to have another baby. Nor does it condemn us to stop enjoying ordinary sex or to feel guilty about it. It does mean, however, seeing the bliss of orgasmic emission in the perspective of unchanging blissful awareness, and committing ourselves to revising our values. In short, when we have no control over our orgasmic energies, we stress, with this vow, never to regard the bliss of orgasmic release from ordinary as a spiritual experience, as a way to solve all problems, or as a path to enlightenment.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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ground
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by ground » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:31 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:yes, yes, this is all true... But are you telling me that while getting it on with your hot and sexy partner, you don't also feel a strong desire to say "the hell with being mindful of pure recollection or being in rigpa... I don't wanna be mindful or give a damn about transmuting or self-liberating anything, I just wanna f*&^% and experience this in all its dualistic, delusional hotness"? I know I do... But I make an effort to do the right thing. And hey, in terms of immediate mundane benefit, at least relaxing into instant presence during sex can help a guy last longer haha.
Such talk is the effect of cultivating wrong views.


Kind regards

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Luke
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Luke » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:44 pm

I think that this thread is about everything but The Words of My Perfect Teacher.

Zenda
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Zenda » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:It is a branch downfall to regard a consort who has not been ripened by empowerment as deity.
Yup, I know that, but I find that difficult to combine with other instructions. How could I possibly have sex in a state of awareness and not regard my girlfriend to be a deity? What distinction am I missing here?
Ultimately it means that tantric Buddhists should not have sexual partners who are not also practitioners.
Interesting. What does this mean for tantric practitioners who are married to someone from another faith tradition? Does this vary by school?

Malcolm
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Malcolm » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm

Zenda wrote:

Interesting. What does this mean for tantric practitioners who are married to someone from another faith tradition? Does this vary by school?
No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.

Dhondrub
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Dhondrub » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Zenda wrote:

Interesting. What does this mean for tantric practitioners who are married to someone from another faith tradition? Does this vary by school?
No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.

And here we go again... reminds me of good old e-sangha

Malcolm
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Malcolm » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:32 pm

Dhondrub wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Zenda wrote:

Interesting. What does this mean for tantric practitioners who are married to someone from another faith tradition? Does this vary by school?
No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.

And here we go again... reminds me of good old e-sangha

This issue was not a bg deal in Tibet, since everyone was a Vajrayāna initiate by the time they were ten.

In India, where these vows were elaborated, it was more important.

And naturally, some Vajrayāna practitioner married to a non-Buddhist is going to get all freaked out, get all angry, tell me I am wrong, that their Lama said it was ok, blah blah blah.

N

N

Zenda
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Zenda » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:03 pm

Thanks. Interesting... I'll add it to the list of all the downfalls I'm constantly committing I guess... :)

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Virgo
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Re: WOMPT & Sex

Post by Virgo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:16 pm

Dhondrub wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Zenda wrote:

Interesting. What does this mean for tantric practitioners who are married to someone from another faith tradition? Does this vary by school?
No, the vows are pretty consistent over all.

It means that they are constantly comitting a branch downfall.

And here we go again... reminds me of good old e-sangha
Oh please. This person is just stating what the tantras say. Take it up with the tantras, and not with him.

With all due respect,

Kevin

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