Causes for afflictions to arise

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sangyey
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Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by sangyey »

Do all 4 schools of Tibetan Buddhism accept these as causes for afflictions to arise?

1) incorrect attention
2) close proximity
3) not being rid of disturbing emotions

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... _cogn.html
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maybay
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by maybay »

what's the question behind the question?
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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Virgo
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by Virgo »

sangyey wrote:Do all 4 schools of Tibetan Buddhism accept these as causes for afflictions to arise?

1) incorrect attention
2) close proximity
3) not being rid of disturbing emotions
I assume that's the case.

Kevin
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sangyey
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by sangyey »

Don't know if this is a basic formulation within the Buddha's own words, within Indian commentaries, or within commentaries found within the different school(s) of Tibetan Buddhism.
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maybay
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by maybay »

It's in Vasubandhu's Kosa, section on klesas.
It's worded a bit differently though. ...the non-abandoning of the anusaya, the presence of the object, and from erroneous judgment.
Not everyone in the throes of disturbing emotions loses their judgment. and Chogyam Trungpa comes to mind.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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mudra
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

Actually Vasubandhu condensed these three from six that his half brother, Arya Asangha, presented in his Bodhisattva Bhumis:

1. latent proclivity

2. appearance of objects conducive to arousal of kleshas

3. negative social context (bad and foolish friends)

4. mistaken explanations/teachings

5. habituation

6. incorrect attention
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mudra
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

maybay wrote: Not everyone in the throes of disturbing emotions loses their judgment. and Chogyam Trungpa comes to mind.
Depends on the degree of the klesha, the awareness of the person.

Plus it's very hard for ordinary people like me to judge from the outside.
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Virgo
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by Virgo »

mudra wrote:Actually Vasubandhu condensed these three from six that his half brother, Arya Asangha, presented in his Bodhisattva Bhumis:

1. latent proclivity

2. appearance of objects conducive to arousal of kleshas

3. negative social context (bad and foolish friends)

4. mistaken explanations/teachings

5. habituation

6. incorrect attention
Thank you Mudra. That is very interesting. But I suspect some aspects were omitted by Vasabandhu because afflictions can still arise without

3. negative social context (bad and foolish friends)
4. mistaken explanations/teachings
5. habituation*

* As far as 5. habituation is concerned that is kind of included in latent proclivity.

Though in the right context the list from Asangha is good. It seems to be more of a list of why afflictions arise and what prods their continual development.

Kevin
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sangyey
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by sangyey »

Thank you very much.
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mudra
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

Virgo wrote:
mudra wrote:Actually Vasubandhu condensed these three from six that his half brother, Arya Asangha, presented in his Bodhisattva Bhumis:

1. latent proclivity

2. appearance of objects conducive to arousal of kleshas

3. negative social context (bad and foolish friends)

4. mistaken explanations/teachings

5. habituation

6. incorrect attention
Thank you Mudra. That is very interesting. But I suspect some aspects were omitted by Vasabandhu because afflictions can still arise without

3. negative social context (bad and foolish friends)
4. mistaken explanations/teachings
5. habituation*

* As far as 5. habituation is concerned that is kind of included in latent proclivity.

Though in the right context the list from Asangha is good. It seems to be more of a list of why afflictions arise and what prods their continual development.

Kevin
Hi Kevin,

I think it wasn't so much a case of omission as a matter of condensing 3,4, and 5 into the remaining three (which you started to do with no5). And as far as kleshas arising without one or the other of the causes, even in Vasubandhu's condensed list the idea is to understand that you can tackle the kleshas by tackling any one of these first, but in reality for most of us it is easier to start with overcoming incorrect attention.

And yes it is a list of why afflictions/kleshas arise - in answer to the OP's question.
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by Virgo »

mudra wrote: Hi Kevin,

I think it wasn't so much a case of omission as a matter of condensing 3,4, and 5 into the remaining three (which you started to do with no5). And as far as kleshas arising without one or the other of the causes, even in Vasubandhu's condensed list the idea is to understand that you can tackle the kleshas by tackling any one of these first, but in reality for most of us it is easier to start with overcoming incorrect attention.

And yes it is a list of why afflictions/kleshas arise - in answer to the OP's question.
Hi Mudra. Afflcitions don't arise directly because of negative social context (bad and foolish friends), or because of mistaken explanations/teachings. Those are indirect causes.

Why is this the case? Because someone with no afflictions (lacking latent proclivity) who is in the company of bad and foolish friends will not have any afflictions to arise due that company. It's the same with mistaken explanations and teachings. Someone with no afflictions can listen to mistaken explanations of reality but this cannot prompt any afflictions to arise. These things are indirect causes only. However, if that person does have latent proclivity for afflictions, then all that is needed for the afflictions to arise are the second and third causes of their arising, ie. the object, and unwise attention it. In that case afflictions will arise whether the person is in the company of bad friends or not, and whether he hears/ receives mistaken teachings, so long as their is the object and unwise attention to it. Why? negative social context (bad friends), and mistaken teachings, are only secondary causes.

This isn't to say Arya Asangha is wrong in asserting that one should avoid these secondary causes. One absolutely should! It is to say that they are not primary causes of afflictions, they are secondary. This is why Vasabandhu doesn't list them. Vasabandhu was teaching Abhidharma, not general recommendations for conduct in this sense. That is what I wished to clarify.

Kevin
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mudra
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

Virgo wrote: Hi Mudra. Afflcitions don't arise directly because of negative social context (bad and foolish friends), or because of mistaken explanations/teachings. Those are indirect causes.

Why is this the case? Because someone with no afflictions (lacking latent proclivity) who is in the company of bad and foolish friends will not have any afflictions to arise due that company. It's the same with mistaken explanations and teachings. Someone with no afflictions can listen to mistaken explanations of reality but this cannot prompt any afflictions to arise. These things are indirect causes only. However, if that person does have latent proclivity for afflictions, then all that is needed for the afflictions to arise are the second and third causes of their arising, ie. the object, and unwise attention it. In that case afflictions will arise whether the person is in the company of bad friends or not, and whether he hears/ receives mistaken teachings, so long as their is the object and unwise attention to it. Why? negative social context (bad friends), and mistaken teachings, are only secondary causes.

This isn't to say Arya Asangha is wrong in asserting that one should avoid these secondary causes. One absolutely should! It is to say that they are not primary causes of afflictions, they are secondary. This is why Vasabandhu doesn't list them. Vasabandhu was teaching Abhidharma, not general recommendations for conduct in this sense. That is what I wished to clarify.

Kevin
Hi Kevin, no dispute about these being indirect causes. The only direct cause for afflictions is ignorance or the darkness of the mind. What both Vasubandhu and Arya Asangha were discussing is what "triggers" the kleshas to arise. Both of them discuss it in the context of how to overcome the kleshas, so first of all knowing what excites them to appear is important.

Wrong attention is just as much an indirect cause as bad teachings for example, just a little bit more powerful in the immediate context. Latency and proximity are also not direct causes. If proximity to the object were a direct cause for example, then even Aryas would experience afflictive obscuration.

M
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by Virgo »

mudra wrote:The only direct cause for afflictions is ignorance or the darkness of the mind. What both Vasubandhu and Arya Asangha were discussing is what "triggers" the kleshas to arise. Both of them discuss it in the context of how to overcome the kleshas, so first of all knowing what excites them to appear is important.

Wrong attention is just as much an indirect cause as bad teachings for example, just a little bit more powerful in the immediate context. Latency and proximity are also not direct causes. If proximity to the object were a direct cause for example, then even Aryas would experience afflictive obscuration.

M
Hi Mudra,

We are talking about afflcitions arising, not the fact that there are afflictions until they are uprooted.

While there can be a latent proclivity without an object and without unwise attention to said object, I don't think the object and wrong attention to it are indirect causes of afflictions arising. Even if there is latent proclivity for afflictions, if there is no object and no unwise attention towards it, afflictions, though latent, cannot arise and manifest. That is why there are these three causes for afflictions arising-- latent proclivity, an object, and unwise attention to the object.

Likewise, if there is latent proclivity, and an object, but there is wise attention to it rather than unwise attention (ie, prajna and so forth) the afflcition will not arise at that moment. One of the causes of it manefesting or arising are not present.

Vasabandhus and Asanghas teachings in this context are not interchangeable. One is a teaching on Abhidharma which explains how afflictions arise, one is a wisdom teaching on how Bodhisattvas should abandon afflictions.

Kevin
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

Ok. This hair has been split finely enough.
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by Virgo »

mudra wrote:Ok. This hair has been split finely enough.
I'm not splitting hairs, Mudra. These teachings are very important. The distinctions are important if we want to understand mind. There are afflictions for certain reasons, but afflictions only arise when these three things are present.

For example, anger does not arise without all three causes and conditions. Sure, there must be the latent proclivity for it, but there must also be an object for anger, and unwise attention to that object for anger to arise or manifest. Not understanding this, we don't understand how mind works.

You may assume that sometimes anger doesn't have an object, but that is not true. That is not how the chitta operates.

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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by deepbluehum »

sangyey wrote:Do all 4 schools of Tibetan Buddhism accept these as causes for afflictions to arise?

1) incorrect attention
2) close proximity
3) not being rid of disturbing emotions

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... _cogn.html
Not all care about this much detail. Some paint with broader strokes, that the afflictions arise due to thinking things are real.
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mudra
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

Virgo wrote:
mudra wrote:Ok. This hair has been split finely enough.
I'm not splitting hairs, Mudra. These teachings are very important. The distinctions are important if we want to understand mind. There are afflictions for certain reasons, but afflictions only arise when these three things are present.

For example, anger does not arise without all three causes and conditions. Sure, there must be the latent proclivity for it, but there must also be an object for anger, and unwise attention to that object for anger to arise or manifest. Not understanding this, we don't understand how mind works.

You may assume that sometimes anger doesn't have an object, but that is not true. That is not how the chitta operates.

Kevin
Kevin

I think you don't know me well enough to assume that I don't think these teachings are not important.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that, just like you said, it is important if we want to understand how mind, or more specifically, afflictions work within the mind. Why do we want to know that? Presumably if you are a practicing Buddhist it is because you would like to learn how to overcome the afflictions first by stopping the conditions and causes that trigger them - whether you learn this detail from Abhidharma or from the Boddhisattvabhumis.

I assume, and please correct me if I am wrong, that in this aim we have some mutuality?

deepbluehum,

the idea is not so much to be bogged down in details but to actually be clear about what triggers them in real life. It's true that they have their roots in ignorance, but in practice one need to approach it more systematically than inbroadstrokes.

Again the assumption is that we want to deal with the afflictions in practical and "realistic" ways in order to be free of them.
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by Virgo »

mudra wrote: The point I was trying to make earlier is that, just like you said, it is important if we want to understand how mind, or more specifically, afflictions work within the mind. Why do we want to know that? Presumably if you are a practicing Buddhist it is because you would like to learn how to overcome the afflictions first by stopping the conditions and causes that trigger them - whether you learn this detail from Abhidharma or from the Boddhisattvabhumis.
As Bodhisattvas we want to attain enlightenment quickly for the benefit of all sentient beings. It is my personal opinion, that the more one understands about the mind, the senses, and so on, the more it benefits ones practice of tantra. I may be wrong though.


Kevin
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by mudra »

Virgo wrote: As Bodhisattvas we want to attain enlightenment quickly for the benefit of all sentient beings. It is my personal opinion, that the more one understands about the mind, the senses, and so on, the more it benefits ones practice of tantra. I may be wrong though.


Kevin
As I am not a bodhisattva, I can't comment on the basis of experience. But yes Bodhisattvas do strive to overcome afflictive obstructions quickly, and then cognitive obstructions. So it helps all one's practice - whether hinayana, Mahayana perfections, and finally tantra.
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Re: Causes for afflictions to arise

Post by muni »

the root. "Independent unchanging entity me-ego and its characteristics who need to be protected, be pleased". Then all fictitiuos mental constructs follow..

naked nature has no throne...what a pain to be important, as the throne hides its' samsaric glue on my dreaming ass! (song of a yogini)
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