Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

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Mr. G
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Mr. G » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:33 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Although it is regarded as enlightened and it is one of the 13 golden Dharmas in Sakya,
It's a worldly protector in general, not just in Sakya. Ray's comments are incorrect.
I know that it is not an encouraged practice in Sakya. HH Sakya Trizin has said that it can bring alot of obstacles if it is not practiced correctly.
This is not correct, and this was not said by H.H. Sakya Trizin at this year's teaching on the 13 Golden Dharmas.
It is also said to be a difficult practice as one needs to bury a Yaksha before embarking on the practice.
It's not a difficult practice at all, and the burying of a Yaksha is not necessary in the Sakya practice.
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:39 pm

Mr. G wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
Although it is regarded as enlightened and it is one of the 13 golden Dharmas in Sakya,
It's a worldly protector in general, not just in Sakya. Ray's comments are incorrect.
I know that it is not an encouraged practice in Sakya. HH Sakya Trizin has said that it can bring alot of obstacles if it is not practiced correctly.
This is not correct, and this was not said by H.H. Sakya Trizin at this year's teaching on the 13 Golden Dharmas.
It is also said to be a difficult practice as one needs to bury a Yaksha before embarking on the practice.
It's not a difficult practice at all, and the burying of a Yaksha is not necessary in the Sakya practice.
Now that you say that he is a worldly protector, all the more, I understand why it is not HH recommended wealth deity practice for some followers.

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Mr. G » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:51 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Now that you say that he is a worldly protector, all the more, I understand why it is not HH recommended wealth deity practice for some followers.
Of course advice is tailored to each individual. But if one has a connection to the practice, it's unlikely that a person would ask about it in terms of hesitating to practice it. And if H.H. Sakya Trizin is giving the practice, there is no harm in practicing it. It's obvious he's not giving harmful teachings. Ganapati is not just for wealth, but for providing provisions to a practitioner.
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:16 pm

Mr. G wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
Now that you say that he is a worldly protector, all the more, I understand why it is not HH recommended wealth deity practice for some followers.
Of course advice is tailored to each individual. But if one has a connection to the practice, it's unlikely that a person would ask about it in terms of hesitating to practice it. And if H.H. Sakya Trizin is giving the practice, there is no harm in practicing it. It's obvious he's not giving harmful teachings. Ganapati is not just for wealth, but for providing provisions to a practitioner.
But if it wasn't true that certain practice may invite obstacles, HH won't say that just for the sake to deter someone, right? He could simply just state that certain practice is that individual karmic practice instead of this one.

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Mr. G » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:23 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
Now that you say that he is a worldly protector, all the more, I understand why it is not HH recommended wealth deity practice for some followers.
Of course advice is tailored to each individual. But if one has a connection to the practice, it's unlikely that a person would ask about it in terms of hesitating to practice it. And if H.H. Sakya Trizin is giving the practice, there is no harm in practicing it. It's obvious he's not giving harmful teachings. Ganapati is not just for wealth, but for providing provisions to a practitioner.
But if it wasn't true that certain practice may invite obstacles, HH won't say that just for the sake to deter someone, right? He could simply just state that certain practice is that individual karmic practice instead of this one.
I've never heard him say publicly or privately that Ganapati practice invites obstacles. And if anything, he said the exact opposite on the day of the teachings. From this I surmise that the advice given to that individual was just that - it was advice meant for that individual. And for that individual, an enlightened wealth deity would be beneficial, and a worldly deity like Ganapati would have invited obstacles.
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:52 am

All the while, I have the understanding that any one practice in the Sakya 13 golden Dharmas can be taken alone as a sole path to enlightenment. and that include of course the 12 arms Maharakta Ganapati that has its source with Cakrasamvara Tantra.

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Mr. G » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:25 am

WeiHan wrote:All the while, I have the understanding that any one practice in the Sakya 13 golden Dharmas can be taken alone as a sole path to enlightenment. and that include of course the 12 arms Maharakta Ganapati that has its source with Cakrasamvara Tantra.
Yes, it comes from the Cakrasamvara tantra, but Ganapati is a worldly deity. Why do you think it can be relied upon as a sole path to enlightenment? If it is a sole path to enlightenment, why does one generate oneself into an enlightened deity at the beginning of the practice? Do you think the sole practice of any worldly deity leads to enlightenment?
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:38 pm

Mr. G wrote:
WeiHan wrote:All the while, I have the understanding that any one practice in the Sakya 13 golden Dharmas can be taken alone as a sole path to enlightenment. and that include of course the 12 arms Maharakta Ganapati that has its source with Cakrasamvara Tantra.
Yes, it comes from the Cakrasamvara tantra, but Ganapati is a worldly deity. Why do you think it can be relied upon as a sole path to enlightenment? If it is a sole path to enlightenment, why does one generate oneself into an enlightened deity at the beginning of the practice? Do you think the sole practice of any worldly deity leads to enlightenment?
There are quite a few enlightened deity practices which require one to generate as another enlightened Yidam but that doesn't mean the front creation deity isn't enlightened. An example will be Namtose, in some practice, it requires one to generate as Vajrapani for example.

In certain enlightened protectors sadhanas, such as Mahakala, Ekajati etc...it also require a self creation into a powerful enlightened Yidam so that these enlightened protectors will performed one's wished Dharma activities.

Unenlightened Deity won't have an empowerment.
Last edited by WeiHan on Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:41 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
WeiHan wrote:All the while, I have the understanding that any one practice in the Sakya 13 golden Dharmas can be taken alone as a sole path to enlightenment. and that include of course the 12 arms Maharakta Ganapati that has its source with Cakrasamvara Tantra.
Yes, it comes from the Cakrasamvara tantra, but Ganapati is a worldly deity. Why do you think it can be relied upon as a sole path to enlightenment? If it is a sole path to enlightenment, why does one generate oneself into an enlightened deity at the beginning of the practice? Do you think the sole practice of any worldly deity leads to enlightenment?
There are quite a few enlightened deity practices which require one to generate as another enlightened Yidam but that doesn't mean the front creation deity isn't enlightened. An example will be Namtose, in some practice, it requires one to generate as Vajrapani for example.

In certain enlightened protectors sadhanas, such as Mahakala, Ekajati etc...it also require a self creation into a powerful enlightened Yidam so that these enlightened protectors will performed one's wished Dharma activities.
But there are also Sadhana where one arises as the protector, for example, the famous Vajra Cliff Fortress practice of Mahakala in Sakya. IN general all enlightened protectors have self generation as well.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
But there are also Sadhana where one arises as the protector, for example, the famous Vajra Cliff Fortress practice of Mahakala in Sakya. IN general all enlightened protectors have self generation as well.
Yes. The point is that requirement for oneself to generate as another wisdom Yidam doesn't disqualify the front creation deity as an enlightened emanation.

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:31 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
But there are also Sadhana where one arises as the protector, for example, the famous Vajra Cliff Fortress practice of Mahakala in Sakya. IN general all enlightened protectors have self generation as well.
Yes. The point is that requirement for oneself to generate as another wisdom Yidam doesn't disqualify the front creation deity as an enlightened emanation.
The real point is that Ganapati is a worldly protector.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:12 pm

So, is the "Empowerment" really an empowerment, or more of a permission or entrustment.....??
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by DGA » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:23 pm

Two questions:

What does it mean to bury a Yaksha? if this isn't appropriate for public discussion, I apologize for asking.

And why on earth was this old thread bumped and transformed into a discussion about whether or not a particular "protector" may be an enlightened one or not? Am I alone in seeing a particular subtext at work here?

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:08 pm

conebeckham wrote:So, is the "Empowerment" really an empowerment, or more of a permission or entrustment.....??
It is a jenang.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:09 pm

Jikan wrote:Am I alone in seeing a particular subtext at work here?
Yup.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

WeiHan
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:24 am

Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
But there are also Sadhana where one arises as the protector, for example, the famous Vajra Cliff Fortress practice of Mahakala in Sakya. IN general all enlightened protectors have self generation as well.
Yes. The point is that requirement for oneself to generate as another wisdom Yidam doesn't disqualify the front creation deity as an enlightened emanation.
The real point is that Ganapati is a worldly protector.
Then why is it during the Jenang, 12 arms red Ganapati was introduced as an emanation of Avalokiteshvara?

Is it the official view in Sakya or is it that even in Sakya there are two differing views?

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by smcj » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:34 am

conebeckham wrote:So, is the "Empowerment" really an empowerment, or more of a permission or entrustment.....??
I'd rather display my ignorance than live with it. So what is the difference between an empowerment, permission, entrustment, and jenang? I was once presented with an initiation that was a "life entrustment", but declined because…well let's just say the ToS stops me there.

Also since I'm posting on the subject, I've always understood that public empowerments are different than private ones, as in "empowerment lite". Is that so?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:25 pm

I have a copy of The Cakrasamvara Tantra but could not find any reference to Ganapati. Would any Lotsawa be kind enough to reproduce the reference to Ganesh in the Tantra in English if it is not too long?

WeiHan
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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:38 pm

Jikan wrote:Two questions:

What does it mean to bury a Yaksha? if this isn't appropriate for public discussion, I apologize for asking.

And why on earth was this old thread bumped and transformed into a discussion about whether or not a particular "protector" may be an enlightened one or not? Am I alone in seeing a particular subtext at work here?
Since there should be no killing in Buddhism, I take it that it is prerequisite to bury a dead corpse of a Yaksha so that his Ganapati practice will be successful. As for the detail, I do not know and do not wish to probe further.

This thread has long ago before it has been bumped up been a discussion whether this protector is enlightened or not. It just stopped abruptly with someone quoting from a rather authentic source that he is an emanation of Avalokite. So if he is worldly, can we get to the root of the matter once and for all with reference instead of just assertion.

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Re: Ganesh in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:43 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Then why is it during the Jenang, 12 arms red Ganapati was introduced as an emanation of Avalokiteshvara?

Is it the official view in Sakya or is it that even in Sakya there are two differing views?
Shiva is also considered an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, still Shiva is a worldly protector.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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