Teacher & Root Guru

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Grigoris
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:04 am

What are the characteristics of an authentic teacher? In their outward behaviour, they should be moderate and disciplined. They should never entice their students into harmful behaviour or endanger their future development. Through their words and deeds, they should inspire others to more and more extensive ethical behaviour, doing wholesome deeds and avoiding unwholesome deeds. They should have walked the path of Dharma to its completion and through untiring practice have attained all realisations. Their mind should be free of self-interest and filled with boundless loving-kindness and compassion for all beings. Another mark of an authentic master is a complete absence of pride. They have no self-centred or worldly interests, but only desire to bring all beings to spiritual maturity and enable them to free themselves from their conditioning and the resulting suffering.

...

Who is a suitable student? A suitable student should have much loving-kindness and compassion and practice the Dharma with the intention of realising buddhahood for the benefit of all beings. Their ego-centred tendencies should gradually decrease because they are practice a selfless attitude of mind. Trust in and devotion to the Three Jewels and, in particular, should grow in them and their pride and self-will should abate. The student should have a balanced mind, should not be thrown by either praise or blame and should maintain equanimity under all circumstances, not allowing changing events to disturb their equilibrium.
Gendun Rinpoche Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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kajibabu
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by kajibabu » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Karma Lodro Senge wrote:I have met countless teachers and Rinpoches. From HH Dalai Lama and HH 17th Karmapa to you name it. But I NEVER experienced what I felt like the time I first met and sat in front of Thrangu Rinpoche (my root guru). Even before either of us said a single word, I knew right then that he would be my root guru. He is also the one that ordained me.
Karma Lodro,

What a wonderful GURU DEVOTION ... You had earned good merits in the past and earning now as well.....
Babu, Nepal

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:38 pm

Why is it So Important to Have a Spiritual Teacher?

Question:

Is it necessary to practice the spiritual practice only under proper guidance by a teacher, or can we start on our own if we have faith in what we do?

If the beginning of all knowledge is to know yourself and we have all the answers within ourselves, why is it so important to have a spiritual teacher?
Answer:

We all have innate, unborn qualities. That is not to say that, in a Buddhist sense, we are already enlightened, but the seed of the potential is already planted inside each and every one of us. It is inherently present.

To really sit down and tell ourselves things, such as, ‘I am inherently pure and decent,’ can be difficult – although we can relate to these truths during unemotional moments. But If we have a hard time accepting these truths, when we are in crisis and have doubt in ourselves, then this is a clear sign that we do need someone to guide us; someone to show us; someone to explain and teach us what it is, and that it is like that.

In terms of the question of whether we need a teacher or not, it is not that we have to go to the end of the world to really find the answer. I believe it is right here, right now, we can just ask ourselves individually ‘do we really have the potential or not?’, ‘do we really understand the truth?’ Or, we can change the terms by saying ‘do I know the nature of mind?’, ‘do I know the universe and phenomena?’ and so on.

For this, we may need proper guidance. And then of course, there comes many questions such as ‘how to find an authentic guide?’ and ‘how do we know that that is the right path?’, and so on. But for that I think it is important to focus on the basic qualities of the teachers or guides, and also use our own basic qualities to assess with a good degree of clarity, i.e. without emotion. So, whether Theravada teacher or Mahayana teacher, there are certain standards or certain basic qualities that he or she should require in order to guide.
http://www.kibi-edu.org/qa/why-is-it-so ... l-teacher/
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Simon E. » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:56 pm

:good:
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by weitsicht » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:06 pm

Under the Dzogchen view, does a guru know / perceive himself when he/she gives direct introduction to a student?
Hence, does the guru know who his students are? And how many?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:22 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:06 pm
Under the Dzogchen view, does a guru know / perceive himself when he/she gives direct introduction to a student?
Could you rephrase that? I'm not sure what you're asking. Does the guru perceive himself or others while giving D.I ?
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:06 pm
Hence, does the guru know who his students are? And how many?
This probably depends on how stable the clarity or clairvoyance of the Guru is and whether it counts as useful information in the first place. If the students are in the physical presence of the master or make verbal contact with them, they will know those students in that way. If the guru has clarity, they will also know which students are making mental contact and progress with him/herself and the teachings.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by weitsicht » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:30 pm
In Dzogchen, a root guru is the person who introduces one to one's primordial state in an unmistakable way.
and later Jyoti wrote
Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.
So maybe rephrasing my previous sentence:
Under the Dzogchen view, does a guru know / perceive himself when a student is being introduced to his/her own primordial state?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Vasana
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:57 pm

I would first call in to question the authority and/or nuances of Jyoti's comment before forming your premise.
Jyoti wrote: The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.
See Malcolm's comments in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=18520
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by weitsicht » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:34 pm

Thanks for sharing the link.
I however cannot find a response to my question.

Me feeling introduced into the nature's mind doesn't automatically mean the guru registers?
Or does he?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm

It really depends on the masters' realization, the students (and the number of them) and any other relevant circumstances. Not all masters have the same capacity . Maybe some masters know when 1000s have took it there and then, maybe some don't. Maybe they find out at a later time if the master looks or asks and if it's knowledge that will be of benefit the student, transmission and so on. Why is this question important for you in the first place?

Do you think the master is less qualified if they can't directly see all who received the D.i there and then?
Last edited by Vasana on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by heart » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:43 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:34 pm
Thanks for sharing the link.
I however cannot find a response to my question.

Me feeling introduced into the nature's mind doesn't automatically mean the guru registers?
Or does he?
If you are alone with him, then yes, if in a big group I think not. But I am not a master that give direct introduction so perhaps you should direct your question to an actual master.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by florin » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:55 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:30 pm
In Dzogchen, a root guru is the person who introduces one to one's primordial state in an unmistakable way.
and later Jyoti wrote
Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.
So maybe rephrasing my previous sentence:
Under the Dzogchen view, does a guru know / perceive himself when a student is being introduced to his/her own primordial state?
But this question doesn't make sense in English language.
What exactly are you asking?
Are you asking whether the guru is aware of himself?
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by kirtu » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:00 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:34 pm
Thanks for sharing the link.
I however cannot find a response to my question.

Me feeling introduced into the nature's mind doesn't automatically mean the guru registers?
Or does he?
What do you mean by "the guru registers"? The use of "register" in this way is not correct and is not clear. Register is a transitive verb (usually) so it has to take register something.

Was meinen Sie genau mit dem Wort "registers" in diesem Kontext? What do you mean by the word "registers" here?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by kirtu » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:10 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:34 pm
Me feeling introduced into the nature's mind doesn't automatically mean the guru registers?
Or does he?
heart wrote: If you are alone with him, then yes, if in a big group I think not. But I am not a master that give direct introduction so perhaps you should direct your question to an actual master.
AH! Does the guru know if *you* yourself got the introduction or not? It depends.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by weitsicht » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:15 pm

Vasana wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm
Do you think the master is less qualified if they can't directly see all who received the D.i there and then?
No, not that.
Presumptions only would produce other projections.
I know DJKR is a disputed subject, but still I would like to refer to his saying that student expect him to know what they thought / felt, what he doesn't
florin wrote:Are you asking whether the guru is aware of himself?
No.
Does the guru know when the student is being introduced?
And yes, I was not having a 1:1 rather a 1:x situation in mind.
Kirt wrote:What do you mean by "the guru registers"? The use of "register" in this way is not correct and is not clear. Register is a transitive verb (usually) so it has to take register something.

Was meinen Sie genau mit dem Wort "registers" in diesem Kontext? What do you mean by the word "registers" here?
To register = zur Kenntnis nehmen
i.e. recognize / see / realize / perceive...
That "to register" it is being used transitively usually is new to me but hopefully I don't stop learning soon.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by florin » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:25 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:15 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm
Do you think the master is less qualified if they can't directly see all who received the D.i there and then?
No, not that.
Presumptions only would produce other projections.
I know DJKR is a disputed subject, but still I would like to refer to his saying that student expect him to know what they thought / felt, what he doesn't
florin wrote:Are you asking whether the guru is aware of himself?
No.
Does the guru know when the student is being introduced?
And yes, I was not having a 1:1 rather a 1:x situation in mind.
I see.
I don't know. I mean is not easy to know a guru's capacity. It is certainly not entirely impossible for a guru to know immediately who of the thousands of people he just introduced, had discovered their real state. But this is speculation. In order to know for sure you would have to ask the guru himself.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by kirtu » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:56 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:15 pm
To register = zur Kenntnis nehmen
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:15 pm
Does the guru know when the student is being introduced?
And yes, I was not having a 1:1 rather a 1:x situation in mind.
In many cases, yes, 1:1. But not always, even from some the the highest gurus alive today and recently.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by conebeckham » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:01 pm

florin wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:25 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:15 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm
Do you think the master is less qualified if they can't directly see all who received the D.i there and then?
No, not that.
Presumptions only would produce other projections.
I know DJKR is a disputed subject, but still I would like to refer to his saying that student expect him to know what they thought / felt, what he doesn't
florin wrote:Are you asking whether the guru is aware of himself?
No.
Does the guru know when the student is being introduced?
And yes, I was not having a 1:1 rather a 1:x situation in mind.
I see.
I don't know. I mean is not easy to know a guru's capacity. It is certainly not entirely impossible for a guru to know immediately who of the thousands of people he just introduced, had discovered their real state. But this is speculation. In order to know for sure you would have to ask the guru himself.
I agree. But I think that if the student recognizes, that is the important and crucial point. A quality of Recognition is "confidence." But that "confidence" doesn't mean one cannot confirm with the guru. That is actually an appropriate thing to do, though admittedly not always an easy thing to do.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm

EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:
When Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was once asked to give pointing-out instruction to a group of many thousand people, he simply laughed of the absurdity, because nondual mind needs to be authenticated by the teacher and he knew that he couldn’t check thousands of people. When someone is being told, without being checked, “you have now received the pointing-out introduction,” it’s at best wishful thinking and, at worst, a direct lie.

The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past. Then there can be certainty and this certainty can be put to the test next time you get angry, attached, proud, jealous or close-minded. If you are able to step out of that toxic emotion in an instant and stay in nondual mind, then it’s for real.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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heart
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by heart » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:05 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:15 pm

Does the guru know when the student is being introduced?
And yes, I was not having a 1:1 rather a 1:x situation in mind.
Yes, he knows because he also check your experience.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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