Teacher & Root Guru

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Pero
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Pero » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:36 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:
When Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was once asked to give pointing-out instruction to a group of many thousand people, he simply laughed of the absurdity, because nondual mind needs to be authenticated by the teacher and he knew that he couldn’t check thousands of people. When someone is being told, without being checked, “you have now received the pointing-out introduction,” it’s at best wishful thinking and, at worst, a direct lie.

The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past. Then there can be certainty and this certainty can be put to the test next time you get angry, attached, proud, jealous or close-minded. If you are able to step out of that toxic emotion in an instant and stay in nondual mind, then it’s for real.
I find that odd since won't this line of thinking lead to the conclusion that pretty much most teachers (past and present) are at best delusional and at worst liars?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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conebeckham
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by conebeckham » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:58 pm

Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:36 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:
When Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was once asked to give pointing-out instruction to a group of many thousand people, he simply laughed of the absurdity, because nondual mind needs to be authenticated by the teacher and he knew that he couldn’t check thousands of people. When someone is being told, without being checked, “you have now received the pointing-out introduction,” it’s at best wishful thinking and, at worst, a direct lie.

The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past. Then there can be certainty and this certainty can be put to the test next time you get angry, attached, proud, jealous or close-minded. If you are able to step out of that toxic emotion in an instant and stay in nondual mind, then it’s for real.
I find that odd since won't this line of thinking lead to the conclusion that pretty much most teachers (past and present) are at best delusional and at worst liars?
I'm not sure why you have come to that conclusion, Pero.

Frankly, the phenomenon of "mass DI" is a relatively recent development. Until recently, DI was given in small groups, or to individuals.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Pero
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Pero » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:58 pm
Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:36 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:

I find that odd since won't this line of thinking lead to the conclusion that pretty much most teachers (past and present) are at best delusional and at worst liars?
I'm not sure why you have come to that conclusion, Pero.

Frankly, the phenomenon of "mass DI" is a relatively recent development. Until recently, DI was given in small groups, or to individuals.
Mass empowerments have been given all the time.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Pero
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Pero » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:04 pm

Didn't even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche give direct introduction to a thousand people at once?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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heart
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by heart » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:05 pm

Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:36 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:
When Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was once asked to give pointing-out instruction to a group of many thousand people, he simply laughed of the absurdity, because nondual mind needs to be authenticated by the teacher and he knew that he couldn’t check thousands of people. When someone is being told, without being checked, “you have now received the pointing-out introduction,” it’s at best wishful thinking and, at worst, a direct lie.

The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past. Then there can be certainty and this certainty can be put to the test next time you get angry, attached, proud, jealous or close-minded. If you are able to step out of that toxic emotion in an instant and stay in nondual mind, then it’s for real.
I find that odd since won't this line of thinking lead to the conclusion that pretty much most teachers (past and present) are at best delusional and at worst liars?
No, I don't think so. Remember that TUR used to give direct introduction to bigger groups of people. I received both one to one and as a part of hundreds of people and I find both valid.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 pm

Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:04 pm
Didn't even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche give direct introduction to a thousand people at once?

Actually, this question, essentially, was raised in the comment thread. EPK's, admittedly somewhat enigmatic, response was: "About pointing-out, different teachers have different approaches."
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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heart
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by heart » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:24 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 pm
Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:04 pm
Didn't even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche give direct introduction to a thousand people at once?

Actually, this question, essentially, was raised in the comment thread. EPK's, admittedly somewhat enigmatic, response was: "About pointing-out, different teachers have different approaches."
Actually it makes perfect sense.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:27 pm

heart wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:24 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 pm
Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:04 pm
Didn't even Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche give direct introduction to a thousand people at once?

Actually, this question, essentially, was raised in the comment thread. EPK's, admittedly somewhat enigmatic, response was: "About pointing-out, different teachers have different approaches."
Actually it makes perfect sense.

/magnus

OK. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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conebeckham
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by conebeckham » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:51 pm

Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:00 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:58 pm
Pero wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:36 pm


I find that odd since won't this line of thinking lead to the conclusion that pretty much most teachers (past and present) are at best delusional and at worst liars?
I'm not sure why you have come to that conclusion, Pero.

Frankly, the phenomenon of "mass DI" is a relatively recent development. Until recently, DI was given in small groups, or to individuals.
Mass empowerments have been given all the time.
Yes. And I believe some people "get" the DI, or 4th empowerment, Word Empowerment, etc., whatever you want to call it, at such times. Others may not. If one isn't sure, the only recourse is to ask, right? I mean, Nyoshul Khen was famous for giving a special transmission--he gave it to very few people, one of whom was the current Mingyur Rinpoche. Some teachers limit the number of students who take an empowerment at any given time--some traditions demand this in fact.

All I can really say, in the end, is that you should have confidence if you have "gotten" it--confidence not really contrived. If you do not, then asking and entering into conversation is the only means of clarifying and potentially confirming. There is no way this sort of approach can happen en masse, though, so in the end it boils down to one's own personal experience, even if one confirms with one's teacher.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:22 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:51 pm
All I can really say, in the end, is that you should have confidence if you have "gotten" it--confidence not really contrived.
Interestingly, there are teachers who will separate "getting it" from "having 100% confidence about it," you know.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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PSM
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by PSM » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:27 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:51 pm
All I can really say, in the end, is that you should have confidence if you have "gotten" it--confidence not really contrived. If you do not, then asking and entering into conversation is the only means of clarifying and potentially confirming. There is no way this sort of approach can happen en masse, though, so in the end it boils down to one's own personal experience, even if one confirms with one's teacher.
Tsoknyi Rinpoche told me that in the end the final confirmation of one's experience of rigpa comes from rigpa itself. Asking conceptual mind is asking the "wrong guy".

I do wonder if there is an issue with mahamudra/dzogchen students not having the ability to work with a teacher who can guide them to a concrete understanding in a more personal way over a substantial period of time. It's probably an issue if you "get it" in a completely unambiguous experience, but I don't know how common that is.

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:54 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:01 pm
A quality of Recognition is "confidence." But that "confidence" doesn't mean one cannot confirm with the guru. That is actually an appropriate thing to do, though admittedly not always an easy thing to do.
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:

"The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past. Then there can be certainty and this certainty can be put to the test next time you get angry, attached, proud, jealous or close-minded. If you are able to step out of that toxic emotion in an instant and stay in nondual mind, then it’s for real."
That seems to be the dominant approach, and certainly the traditional one. And it feels intuitive and, well, right. But then there are Dzogchen masters who refuse to verify your recognition (or its lack), and will actually go so far as to refuse to talk with you about it.

Worse, they even tell you that no master can verify your recognition.

:shrug:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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conebeckham
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by conebeckham » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:26 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:54 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:01 pm
A quality of Recognition is "confidence." But that "confidence" doesn't mean one cannot confirm with the guru. That is actually an appropriate thing to do, though admittedly not always an easy thing to do.
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm
EPK's Club Nondualité article is worth reading with regards to this issue. E.g.:

"The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past. Then there can be certainty and this certainty can be put to the test next time you get angry, attached, proud, jealous or close-minded. If you are able to step out of that toxic emotion in an instant and stay in nondual mind, then it’s for real."
That seems to be the dominant approach, and certainly the traditional one. And it feels intuitive and, well, right. But then there are Dzogchen masters who refuse to verify your recognition (or its lack), and will actually go so far as to refuse to talk with you about it.

Worse, they even tell you that no master can verify your recognition.

:shrug:
Well, it would seem there are as many scenarios as there are guru/disciple relationships, doesn't it? :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:30 pm

Absolutely. Very confusing, it also is.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Grigoris
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:50 pm

It is probably "meant" to be confusing since it is not something that is meant to satisfy rationalising/dualistic mind.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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florin
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by florin » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:05 pm

The thing is that the guru cannot show you your nature even with the help of his own words let alone with the help of descriptions that come out from someone else's mouth.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Ogyen » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:30 pm

florin wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:05 pm
The thing is that the guru cannot show you your nature even with the help of his own words let alone with the help of descriptions that come out from someone else's mouth.
Please elaborate, because with what I am understanding or perhaps interpreting, I do not agree at all.

An authentic teacher will speak and whether there are 2 or 200 students who have a karmic connection with him, everyone seems to think they are addressing them personally in their teachings. Their language is so direct and penetrates all the noise so that one is introduced to one's primordial state. It's something I've only verbally verified with other students who all experienced the same, and my personal experience corroborates. Maybe they're mass deluded to the outside viewer, but the synchronicity is hard to simply discard...

If you mean the root teacher can't SHOW you your self, perhaps it's framing the concept erroneously from the outset, like asking someone to see with your eyes to show you something, in which case I agree with your first part of the sentence.

If you mean the root teacher can't show you the direct path to for you to see your own nature unequivocally and with their mere words, I respectfully and strongly disagree. And so would anyone who's received that direct introduction.

And if I've completely misunderstood, please disregard my response as ramblings. :twothumbsup:

:meditate:
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:48 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:30 pm
If you mean the root teacher can't SHOW you your self ...

Show you your WHAT??!!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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conebeckham
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by conebeckham » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:09 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:30 pm
florin wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:05 pm
The thing is that the guru cannot show you your nature even with the help of his own words let alone with the help of descriptions that come out from someone else's mouth.
Please elaborate, because with what I am understanding or perhaps interpreting, I do not agree at all.

An authentic teacher will speak and whether there are 2 or 200 students who have a karmic connection with him, everyone seems to think they are addressing them personally in their teachings. Their language is so direct and penetrates all the noise so that one is introduced to one's primordial state. It's something I've only verbally verified with other students who all experienced the same, and my personal experience corroborates. Maybe they're mass deluded to the outside viewer, but the synchronicity is hard to simply discard...

If you mean the root teacher can't SHOW you your self, perhaps it's framing the concept erroneously from the outset, like asking someone to see with your eyes to show you something, in which case I agree with your first part of the sentence.

If you mean the root teacher can't show you the direct path to for you to see your own nature unequivocally and with their mere words, I respectfully and strongly disagree. And so would anyone who's received that direct introduction.

And if I've completely misunderstood, please disregard my response as ramblings. :twothumbsup:

:meditate:
I too am a bit confused by the assertion that a teacher cannot show you your nature with "his own words," etc.
There are numerous instructions, given by various teachers, and these instructions are said to have been effective, if we are to believe the words of anyone who has "recognized" their nature.

But, to be clear, there is "Tendrel" in play here; it is not the words alone which effect the recognition. The student has to be "prepared," so to speak...receptive and attentive, and some compassion and devotion may help grease the wheels too. That's part of the Karmic connection, too, I think.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:50 pm
It is probably "meant" to be confusing since it is not something that is meant to satisfy rationalising/dualistic mind.
That is how I account for it on the sunnier days too. Then there is probably the issue of expedient means: different strokes for different students, one would guess.
florin wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:05 pm
The thing is that the guru cannot show you your nature even with the help of his own words let alone with the help of descriptions that come out from someone else's mouth.
Some teachers say that. Others say the exact opposite. Ah, how one could fail to love Vajrayana?
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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