Teacher & Root Guru

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florin
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by florin »

I am not confortable going into details. More or less i had in mind the transmission of dzogchen state as is explained by Rongzom and others.
I already said too much.
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Ogyen
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Ogyen »

conebeckham wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:09 pm But, to be clear, there is "Tendrel" in play here; it is not the words alone which effect the recognition. The student has to be "prepared," so to speak...receptive and attentive, and some compassion and devotion may help grease the wheels too. That's part of the Karmic connection, too, I think.
Oh, excellent point, I skipped that point thinking how most people come into these situations through some previous search, but great point in the case where one's karma ripened in such a way that they sort of stumble in onto the scenario of being with a root guru.

I had no particular "devotion" to my root teacher when I received transmission (is that un-PC to admit?), it was more conditions came together in a time and place that brought it all together. And then I asked how I would know if my teacher was my root teacher, and how I would know to verify it for myself... if was told that I could observe doubt falling away, and confidence growing whether it was immediate or gradual... basically in not so many words, it would become self-evident through the fruit of the path I was following...

Honestly, I didn't believe or disbelieve. I plain and simple just didn't know and I simply applied the instructions the best that I could with a pure intention. And then I did experience that profound unequivocal recognition or confidence. I consistently applied the method as well as I could, all the confidence began to manifest in various ways that will never be altogether logical. As Greg noted, it's not really meant to satisfy the rationalizing mind, that's not its purpose. I have verified that.

So my question in this thread is... what happens when your root teacher dies? This is something that I've been wondering. Does the root relationship stay with you?
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy
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weitsicht
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by weitsicht »

No first-hand experience I can share with you @Ogyen
but sure this connection stays as-well-as it transforms into something new. The Guru leaving this world physically provoces more internalization of the devoted student's inner guru.
It is somewhere after Minute 20 in this film where Western student reflect about Tulku Urgyen's death


Admittedly I hope for Sogyal's (former) students to advance on this path. He hasn't deceased but still he is ceased somehow. Switching over to another Guru doesn't feel rigt.
But I'm not affected and I don't want to judge.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
KristenM
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by KristenM »

Ogyen wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:17 am
conebeckham wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:09 pm But, to be clear, there is "Tendrel" in play here; it is not the words alone which effect the recognition. The student has to be "prepared," so to speak...receptive and attentive, and some compassion and devotion may help grease the wheels too. That's part of the Karmic connection, too, I think.
Oh, excellent point, I skipped that point thinking how most people come into these situations through some previous search, but great point in the case where one's karma ripened in such a way that they sort of stumble in onto the scenario of being with a root guru.

I had no particular "devotion" to my root teacher when I received transmission (is that un-PC to admit?), it was more conditions came together in a time and place that brought it all together. And then I asked how I would know if my teacher was my root teacher, and how I would know to verify it for myself... if was told that I could observe doubt falling away, and confidence growing whether it was immediate or gradual... basically in not so many words, it would become self-evident through the fruit of the path I was following...

Honestly, I didn't believe or disbelieve. I plain and simple just didn't know and I simply applied the instructions the best that I could with a pure intention. And then I did experience that profound unequivocal recognition or confidence. I consistently applied the method as well as I could, all the confidence began to manifest in various ways that will never be altogether logical. As Greg noted, it's not really meant to satisfy the rationalizing mind, that's not its purpose. I have verified that.

So my question in this thread is... what happens when your root teacher dies? This is something that I've been wondering. Does the root relationship stay with you?
My root teacher died, it left me drifting a little but there is still an incredible connection. Last week I found my notes from a retreat I did with him. I wrote down everything he said word for word at the time and tbh, I am again shocked by the profundity of his teaching, reading it all again. It was no ordinary teaching. I recall being exhausted as he talked, for hours and hours from dawn till night, I wish I could share it with others.
tingdzin
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by tingdzin »

Ogyen wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:17 am So my question in this thread is... what happens when your root teacher dies? This is something that I've been wondering. Does the root relationship stay with you?
The aspect of the root lama that Lungtok Tenpe Nyima calls "the principal lama", i.e., the form with characteristics, is but one aspect of the lama-disciple nexus (and it is a large mistake to consider the root lama as wholly contained in the particular human form whose interaction with you made him or her your root lama). If he or she really was your root lama (I am speaking in the Nyingmapa sense), then the interaction cannot but continue after the human form disappears. So the short answer is, of course.
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Ogyen
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Ogyen »

What interesting responses everyone! Tharpa... Wow I got chills reading what you wrote. I could feel it as if I'd lived that before!

Tingdzin, the nyingma approach makes sense in my context for reference to what I understand of what is called the root lama. Thank you :bow:
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy
Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Aspiring.Monk »

Is it ok to take initial refuge from a lama that is not a part of the lineage that you are interested in?

Example: I am interested in the Drikung lineage but have no opportunity to take refuge with Garche Rinpoche in person. I am traveling in the near future to the Philippines and may have the opportunity to take initial refuge with the resident lama in the Nyingma school.

Is this advised against or does it not really matter?
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Aspiring.Monk wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:52 pm Is it ok to take initial refuge from a lama that is not a part of the lineage that you are interested in?

Example: I am interested in the Drikung lineage but have no opportunity to take refuge with Garche Rinpoche in person. I am traveling in the near future to the Philippines and may have the opportunity to take initial refuge with the resident lama in the Nyingma school.

Is this advised against or does it not really matter?
You don't take a refuge in a lineage, but in the three jewels. So it is okay. But it depends entirely on you. I took refuge "formally" after many years when I was sure I found "my" lama. :)
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Aspiring.Monk »

Miroku wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:30 pm
Aspiring.Monk wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:52 pm Is it ok to take initial refuge from a lama that is not a part of the lineage that you are interested in?

Example: I am interested in the Drikung lineage but have no opportunity to take refuge with Garche Rinpoche in person. I am traveling in the near future to the Philippines and may have the opportunity to take initial refuge with the resident lama in the Nyingma school.

Is this advised against or does it not really matter?
You don't take a refuge in a lineage, but in the three jewels. So it is okay. But it depends entirely on you. I took refuge "formally" after many years when I was sure I found "my" lama. :)
Thank you for the insight
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ajhayes
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by ajhayes »

Aspiring.Monk wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:52 pm Is it ok to take initial refuge from a lama that is not a part of the lineage that you are interested in?

Example: I am interested in the Drikung lineage but have no opportunity to take refuge with Garche Rinpoche in person. I am traveling in the near future to the Philippines and may have the opportunity to take initial refuge with the resident lama in the Nyingma school.

Is this advised against or does it not really matter?
HE Garchen Rinpoche offers online refuge as well. It's on the Garchen Buddhist Institute website.
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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Teacher & Root Guru

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:30 pm
Aspiring.Monk wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:52 pm Is it ok to take initial refuge from a lama that is not a part of the lineage that you are interested in?

Example: I am interested in the Drikung lineage but have no opportunity to take refuge with Garche Rinpoche in person. I am traveling in the near future to the Philippines and may have the opportunity to take initial refuge with the resident lama in the Nyingma school.

Is this advised against or does it not really matter?
You don't take a refuge in a lineage, but in the three jewels. So it is okay. But it depends entirely on you. I took refuge "formally" after many years when I was sure I found "my" lama. :)
Garchen Rinpoche also offers instructions for taking Refuge from afar. That's how I took the vows from him the first time. DM me and I can see if I can figure out a way to send you the photo of the instructions I have...
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
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