Dharma Wheel

Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Jyoti wrote:

Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.

Jyoti wrote:

Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.

Jyoti wrote:

Blue Garuda wrote:More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.

The teacher who is guiding should at best have completed the qualities of abandonment and realization himself, and know the level of development of the students. If such a teacher is not available, it should be someone who has not just requested, obtained, and practiced the Dharma in a superficial manner, and left it at that, but rather someone who has himself practiced with perseverance and brought forth faultless meditative experiences, and who can guide others in accordance with it. Other kinds of guidance, like the boisterous instructions of a charlatan, the invented instructions of a pretentious person, the textual explanations of someone with little knowledge, and the misleading instructions of a braggart should be avoided. The word explanations of a scholar, the practical instructions of a great meditator, the guidance based on experience of a yogi, the wisdom instructions of a realized master, and the pointing-out instructions for old woman are compatible in purpose.

gregkavarnos wrote:A little something from the text Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning by the 9th Karmapa Wangchug Dorje:

The teacher who is guiding should at best have completed the qualities of abandonment and realization himself, and know the level of development of the students. If such a teacher is not available, it should be someone who has not just requested, obtained, and practiced the Dharma in a superficial manner, and left it at that, but rather someone who has himself practiced with perseverance and brought forth faultless meditative experiences, and who can guide others in accordance with it. Other kinds of guidance, like the boisterous instructions of a charlatan, the invented instructions of a pretentious person, the textual explanations of someone with little knowledge, and the misleading instructions of a braggart should be avoided. The word explanations of a scholar, the practical instructions of a great meditator, the guidance based on experience of a yogi, the wisdom instructions of a realized master, and the pointing-out instructions for old woman are compatible in purpose.

gregkavarnos wrote:No. I do believe he is referring to pointing out instructions that were given by some famous Mahamudra master (that alludes me right now) to his mother. That type (or class) of pointing out instruction. I imagine, given the social circumstances of women in Tibet-of-old, it means pointing out instructions for an uneducated (or non-intellectual) follower that has heartfelt faith as their mainstay.

Nilasarasvati wrote:Should that read "The pointing-out instructions of an old woman?"

What is the Karmapa referring to there? Old Dakinis?

Koji wrote:Westerners who take up Tibetan traditions often believe that following a guru will lead to bodhi. So to speak, if the guru eats garlic, the student will fart garlic. This is nonsense. Buddhas and gurus only point the way. They won't carry us through burning samsara or paddle us to the other shore. As much as westerners think, "I am different" they usually end up becoming guru followers. They never stand on the shoulder's of giants.

Ramon1920 wrote:There are some shameless people playing guru pressuring naive strangers into taking vows and committing to them before the students even know if they're qualified. Once that student is on the hook they take full advantage of that student as a cult slave and limit their communication with others by making rules about seeing other teachers or their students.

I have no problem saying if you take vows from such a con artist there is no fault in leaving them and warning others about their cult. You will not go to Vajra hell for taking vows from a con artist because they could not have had Vajrayana vows to give if they collected students for their personal use. Inform people in the Vajrayana community around you of what's going on, a lot can be accomplished by word of mouth and don't feel guilty for doing so. No one in their right mind will blame you for leaving a corrupt teacher.

Also, even good gurus can develop mental illness later in life. It's important to know when to disregard what even your guru has said.

Konchog1 wrote:

Ramon1920 wrote:There are some shameless people playing guru pressuring naive strangers into taking vows and committing to them before the students even know if they're qualified. Once that student is on the hook they take full advantage of that student as a cult slave and limit their communication with others by making rules about seeing other teachers or their students.

I have no problem saying if you take vows from such a con artist there is no fault in leaving them and warning others about their cult. You will not go to Vajra hell for taking vows from a con artist because they could not have had Vajrayana vows to give if they collected students for their personal use. Inform people in the Vajrayana community around you of what's going on, a lot can be accomplished by word of mouth and don't feel guilty for doing so. No one in their right mind will blame you for leaving a corrupt teacher.

Also, even good gurus can develop mental illness later in life. It's important to know when to disregard what even your guru has said.

I've never seen it explicitly said anywhere, but my impression is that vows and pledges received from a samaya breaker is invalid since initiations are.

Since an abusive person would be breaking his vows every time he was abusive, any vows, pledges, or initiations he gives would be invalid.