Torma questions

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Konchog1
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Torma questions

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:53 am

My questions concern Chokgyur Lingpa's Zap Tik Drolma Mandal Choga, a New Terma.

1. Can a loaf of bread or something be used instead of the traditional terma or must it be a cone of barley and butter?
2. If it's offered to the Three Jewels and all beings, what do I do with it after the ritual? Eat it? Leave it in the wild?
3. How are the torma offering mudras performed?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

ngodrup
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Re: Torma questions

Post by ngodrup » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:16 am

They can be a cone of oatmeal and vodka.

Question: Would you really want to feed anybody you cared about with "Wonder Bread?"
It makes me wonder... ;)

Seriously, the shapes and colors are significant.

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Konchog1
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Re: Torma questions

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:37 am

ngodrup wrote: Question: Would you really want to feed anybody you cared about with "Wonder Bread?"
How about homemade bread?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

Kunga
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Re: Torma questions

Post by Kunga » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:47 am

Anything edible and (preferably) desirable. I just use biscuits.

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heart
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Re: Torma questions

Post by heart » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:23 pm

ngodrup wrote:They can be a cone of oatmeal and vodka.
No, they can't. It is mainly a kriya yoga practice. No alcohol.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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heart
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Re: Torma questions

Post by heart » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:30 pm

Konchog1 wrote:My questions concern Chokgyur Lingpa's Zap Tik Drolma Mandal Choga, a New Terma.

1. Can a loaf of bread or something be used instead of the traditional terma or must it be a cone of barley and butter?
If you are talking about the torma offering in the end I think you can use a serkyem with tea and grain. Trow it out in a clean place afterwards.
2. If it's offered to the Three Jewels and all beings, what do I do with it after the ritual? Eat it? Leave it in the wild?
See above.
3. How are the torma offering mudras performed?

You have to learn from a qualified Lama. Where are you in the world? I might be able to point you in the right direction. Lama Tenzin that is leading this retreat on the Zap Tik Drolma Mandal Choga is very capable http://gomde-retreats.dk/international/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Torma questions

Post by Lhug-Pa » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:20 pm

The Whole Foods Market by my house has in its frozen bread section a decently-priced small loaf of good quality barley bread (although it has wheat and wheat berry flour in it too). I've heard that you can take a slice of something like that, put some butter on it, and smash it with your hand and shape it into a cone; which I tried, and it works.

As for left-over Ganapuja or Torma offerings... is it okay, if we do not spray it with chemical fertilizers or pesticides, to disperse them in our garden? Is it considered a clean place in which to disperse left-over offerings in that case?
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Dave The Seeker
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Re: Torma questions

Post by Dave The Seeker » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:34 pm

In my understanding, a clean place also consists of the offering to not be stepped on as well as chemical free.
As with water bowl offerings being used to water plants. They're not stepped on and the offering is then used to benifit life.

Kindest wishes, Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Torma questions

Post by Lhug-Pa » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:31 pm

Excellent.

We have small garden areas where we can cultivate our plants without really having to actually step on the garden. And if we do by chance have to walk on it at all, then perhaps if we do so with Awareness and with washed bare-feet, it should be okay, so long as we make sure to at least not step on any of the offerings that have been dispersed there.

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conebeckham
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Re: Torma questions

Post by conebeckham » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:08 pm

Normally, I think it's a "Kartor," or white torma, that gets offered at the end. And there's the Tentor--the "permanent torma" on the shrine, which represents the deity. I searched for a Kagyu Kartor pic and couldn't find...but you can search for torma pics and get an idea....

This is a Zabtik Drolma tentor according to the Kamtsang tradition.
Image

Here's another one, with a more "ornate" top...

Image

Then, for the "Food offering" we use a Shelze, this one is typical of Karma Kagyu style as well.
Image

Each lineage has their own style.....I've seen kartors from various Nyingma traditions, they have only two "gyen," instead of the three we use normally....even in the same lineage, there are different styles of torma for different pujas, even when they're called the same thing....

It's also okay to use Serkyem, or biscuits, as daily torma offerings, if you don't have time to make daily torma or don't know how.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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heart
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Re: Torma questions

Post by heart » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:56 pm

heart wrote:
ngodrup wrote:They can be a cone of oatmeal and vodka.
No, they can't. It is mainly a kriya yoga practice. No alcohol.

/magnus

Just to be clear, the Zap Tik Drolma Mandal Choga, the outer sadhana of the Zap Tik Drolma cycle is a kriya yoga practice. It is clearly written in the introduction that you should avoid meat and alcohol.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Konchog1
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Re: Torma questions

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:05 pm

Thanks everyone for your help.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

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