Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
wbass67
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:31 am

Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by wbass67 »

I am a practitioner in the Soto zen tradition but am very interested in Vajrayana buddhism. Has anyone read this work and could respond to the claims of it?
Last edited by Mr. G on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Link removed in reference to TOS #4
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by DGA »

It's an unsubstantiated hit piece with no credibility.
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Huseng »

Firstly, it is clear that the Tibetan exile community of 2012 in India cannot be held accountable for any human rights violations committed by Tibetan government officials and/or clergymen in the early 20th century and before.

I'm not going to read that whole thing, but the part about Robert Thurman is amusing as it paints him as some kind of dastardly occultist seeking to subvert the world for a Buddhocracy to take control.
Having returned from India to the United States, Thurman began an academic career, studying at Harvard and translating several classic Buddhist texts from Tibetan. He then founded the “Tibet House” in New York, a missionary office for the spread of Lamaism in America disguised as a cultural institute.
Who calls Tibetan Buddhism "Lamaism" anymore?
wbass67
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:31 am

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by wbass67 »

I agree that it is no doubt a hit piece and that some of its claims are outlandish, but I think it brings up some valid points regarding the exploitation of women in tantirc sex magic rituals, oppressive political system in Tibet, real purpose of Kalchakra tantra ritual, and tantra's obsession with violence and trangsgresivenss, etc. I was wondering if anyone that has fully investigated the piece could respond to some of the claims without dismissing the whole thing. It seems to be really well researched, to me.
User avatar
maybay
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by maybay »

wbass67 wrote:I agree that it is no doubt a hit piece and that some of its claims are outlandish, but I think it brings up some valid points regarding the exploitation of women in tantirc sex magic rituals, oppressive political system in Tibet, real purpose of Kalchakra tantra ritual, and tantra's obsession with violence and trangsgresivenss, etc. I was wondering if anyone that has fully investigated the piece could respond to some of the claims without dismissing the whole thing. It seems to be really well researched, to me.
A cruise missile is a marvelous piece of technology, but what is the intention behind its author/agent?

If something there really throws you, you could start another thread(s) in your own words.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Blue Garuda
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Blue Garuda »

There is probably a germ of truth in this tale, and there are probably many abuses still being perpetrated by Tibetans and on Tibetans.

However, I am surprised that Mods haven't locked this thread or deleted it as the OP is a direct link to a document about controversial oracles and dharmapala practices, in contravention of the ToS. _/\_
Left
User avatar
Tilopa
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Tilopa »

wbass67 wrote:I agree that it is no doubt a hit piece and that some of its claims are outlandish.
More than outlandish it's absurd and reveals the authors total lack of understanding.
I think it brings up some valid points regarding the exploitation of women in tantirc sex magic rituals
I think you are probably quite ignorant about Tantra, as are the Trimundis.
real purpose of Kalchakra tantra ritual

I think you are probably very ignorant about Tantra, as are the Trimundis.
and tantra's obsession with violence and trangsgresivenss
You are definitely completely ignorant about Tantra, as are the Trimundis.
I was wondering if anyone that has fully investigated the piece could respond to some of the claims without dismissing the whole thing.
Nope sorry. Life is too short. Who wants to waste their time with this crap.
It seems to be really well researched, to me.
You obviously know very little about Tibet or Vajrayana Buddhism but you have a wonderful sense of humor.
User avatar
Anders
Posts: 1212
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Anders »

I took a look at one section:

  • Srinmo is — as we still have to prove — the mythic “inner enemy” of Tibetan Lamaism, while the external mythic enemy is likewise represented by a woman, the Chinese goddess Guanyin.


lol wut?

Someone was dropping too much acid when writing this. So much content that is just pure imagination.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
muni
Posts: 4930
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by muni »

Other sex tread? Olé greedy play!

ps: Shadow? The dog or the lion?

Thanks for help!


(Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche 4804 views, tread of own hidden faults by Longchenpa, which I had to return to almost 10 times as printing problem; 41 views) Samsara is such a joy.
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Grigoris »

I read and discussed this book with one of my lamas 3-4 years ago and his opinion was that, unfortunately, a fair amount of what was being said in the book is true.

That there is a hefty quantity of politics and corruption in Tibetan religious organisation is undeniable and, for me, a lot of the time it is completely off-putting. But then, when I am visualising the refuge tree and I see all those great masters and dwell on the amazing practices that have trickled down through a generally despicable organisation, I am supremely thankful. :twothumbsup:

This is samsara, it is as perfect as it gets. You want to focus on the negative bits, do so, Buddha knows there are plenty out there to focus on! You want to focus on the positive bits and maybe, just maybe, see the true nature of your mind? Well, that's a lot harder but the rewards are infinitely gretaer! The choice is yours.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Mr. G
Posts: 4080
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Mr. G »

Jikan wrote:It's an unsubstantiated hit piece with no credibility.
This^
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
Posts: 4080
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Mr. G »

wbass67 wrote:I agree that it is no doubt a hit piece and that some of its claims are outlandish, but I think it brings up some valid points regarding the exploitation of women in tantirc sex magic rituals, oppressive political system in Tibet, real purpose of Kalchakra tantra ritual, and tantra's obsession with violence and trangsgresivenss, etc.
  • Prof. Miranda Shaw argues that
    not only did women have a key role in tantric theory but that they
    were prominent as adepts in tantric circles, and that they figured
    as founders and pioneers in tantric Buddhism’s history. She
    suggests, moreover, that their position in relation to male tantric
    practitioners was not one of being exploited but, on the contrary,
    one of intimacy and equality, if not of superiority (as their
    teacher).


    - Prof. Anthony Tribe
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • Tantric initiations, such as Kalachakra, require the taking of vows to refrain from destructive behavior. These include "bodhisattva vows" to refrain from behavior that would either harm others or damage their abilities to help others.

    Initiation into the two highest classes of tantra, such as Kalachakra, also requires taking the "tantric vows." These entail restraint from behaving in ways that would damage one's spiritual progress, such as neglecting to remain mindful of the true nature of reality each day, in terms of voidness.

    Voidness does not mean that everything, including ethics, in actuality do not exist. It never negates the conventional distinctions between destructive and constructive behavior, or the functioning of behavioral cause and effect. Nonduality, as represented by couples in union, means that categories such as "destructive" and "constructive" do not exist independently of each other. They are designated in relation to each other and in relation to their causes and effects. Thus, going beyond dualism does not mean gaining authority for indulging in selfish or exploitative behavior and for abrogating responsibility for one's actions. It means gaining awareness of the totality of reality, with a vision of the interrelatedness and interdependence of everything.


    - Dr. Alexander Berzin
It seems to be really well researched, to me.
It is not well researched at all. The citations are completely taken out of context, and lacks any intellectual rigor.
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by plwk »

Who calls Tibetan Buddhism "Lamaism" anymore?
Ask any old generation Chinese and the not so informed ones.... yes it's still being used in the 21st Century...
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5107
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by conebeckham »

This piece is a great example of the adage that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

There are some "facts," and there is some "correct" information, even, in the piece. But the facts and information are marshalled in such a way as to support conclusions that were developed first. the authors are variously characterized as Maoists or Marxists out there on the Net. What is clear is that the PRC loves their stuff. You'll find their various stooges quoting the Trimondi pieces all over the place. Fundamentalist/Jihadi Muslims also love their stuff.

This is not to say that institutional Tibetan Buddhism doesn't have it's issues, like any other institutional religion.

Read this.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/arti ... oewe3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Blue Garuda
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Blue Garuda »

This was the section which prompted me to report it as a link to the Shugden controversy, so possibly a problem with ToS:


Part II Section 7:

''The War of the Oracle Gods and the Shugden Affair

The Tibetan state oracle

Dorje Shugden—a threat to the XIV Dalai Lama’s life?''


Of course, in the interests of grown up debate, as seems to be happening, we could just ignore that section and discuss the rest. ;)

Between the members we have probably known Lamas who were power-hungry, or drunks, or womanisers, or exploited disciples sexually (and gave them HIV). I know these things matter, and maybe people should be alerted to a possibly dodgy teacher, but I've seen the same stuff recycled on several forums and I'm not sure there was much point to it all aside from affirming that we approve of virtue and that there are negative actions in samsara. Maybe there is something to learn which will prevent future negative behaviour, but I'm not sure what.
Left
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
Posts: 3423
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by catmoon »

The real problem with the article was that it consists entirely of the negatives and completely ignores anything positive. At no time does the author attempt anything approaching an even-handed evaluation of Buddhism and its' value.

I can only conclude it was written with the intent to do as much damage to Tibetan Buddhism as possible.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
Blue Garuda
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by Blue Garuda »

catmoon wrote:The real problem with the article was that it consists entirely of the negatives and completely ignores anything positive. At no time does the author attempt anything approaching an even-handed evaluation of Buddhism and its' value.

I can only conclude it was written with the intent to do as much damage to Tibetan Buddhism as possible.
Sex sells.

Fame and infamy each produce the attention some people crave.
Left
User avatar
mindyourmind
Posts: 497
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
Location: South Africa

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by mindyourmind »

If you are a Catholic you have public relations issues to deal with. Same with being a Mormon, Hindu, Scientologist, Zen Buddhist, Evangelical Christian, Shinto, Methodist, ....... Have a careful look at all of this, see the motivation behind the piece, maybe learn something from it and then walk away from it. There is very little positive to take from the entire exercise, other than to look after your own mind, and practice.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

Namkhai Norbu
User avatar
maybay
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by maybay »

Blue Garuda wrote:Fame and infamy each produce the attention some people crave.
Only some people?
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1938
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Shadow of the Dalai Lama

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

catmoon wrote:I can only conclude it was written with the intent to do as much damage to Tibetan Buddhism as possible.
And that precisely is the real problem with this article.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”