Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

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smcj
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:51 am

ShineeSeoul wrote: what i have learn here from member response, is that, even vajrayana monk can still have sex with consort if they are high practitioner? or so called qualified enough?
Can a monk have sex? No. Full stop. End of discussion.

The analogy I've been given is of trying to civilize a violent thug. In order to tame him you start with the crudest of his behaviors. You might tell him something like, "Don't stab people anymore. Don't cut them with knives--no matter what." And then after he has gotten over his violent behaviors you might then teach him how to read, and send him back to school. If he did well at school you could send him to college, and then maybe to med school. After graduating med school he could start to treat people. But then there is a problem; if he keeps his promise to "not cut someone with a knife" he can't perform surgery. But surgery is not violence, it is completely different. But even if you are a surgeon you still can't be violent and go around stabbing people.

In the same way a monk, even a Vajrayana monk, cannot have sex. If, on the other hand, they are so evolved (which is extremely rare) they can do something that looks like sex but is as different from sex as surgery is from stabbing someone. But they can no more "have sex" than a surgeon is allowed to stab someone in anger. It is still forbidden. If it ends up being a sexual encounter it is breaking their vows.

It is unimaginable to us that two people can be linked like that and have it be something other than sex. But just because it is beyond our imagination does not mean it is not an actuality. In fact all deep Dharma realizations and practices are beyond our imaginings. Which is why it is so disconcerting for a conservative like me to hear formally secret practices discussed here at DW.

*******************************************************************************************

In fact, the Gelug school was formed in no small part in reaction to the abuse of this practice. Lama Tsongkhapa started a reform movement where the Vinaya was stressed. He himself got to the point in his practice where it would have been appropriate to take a consort but eschewed the practice, not because the practice was either invalid or inappropriate, but because then people with normal awareness would misinterpret his action as him "having sex".
A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.
ChNN
The Gelugpas are very very conservative about this practice. HHDL's office is effectively correct in their denying that it practices. For them it is so rare as to not even be an issue. If that's what you're interested in, then go ask a non-monastic Nyingma lama. They aren't so uptight about it.

HHDL has said that the whole "monks with wives" idea is not Dharma.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:35 am

smcj wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: what i have learn here from member response, is that, even vajrayana monk can still have sex with consort if they are high practitioner? or so called qualified enough?
Can a monk have sex? No. Full stop. End of discussion.

The analogy I've been given is of trying to civilize a violent thug. In order to tame him you start with the crudest of his behaviors. You might tell him something like, "Don't stab people anymore. Don't cut them with knives--no matter what." And then after he has gotten over his violent behaviors you might then teach him how to read, and send him back to school. If he did well at school you could send him to college, and then maybe to med school. After graduating med school he could start to treat people. But then there is a problem; if he keeps his promise to "not cut someone with a knife" he can't perform surgery. But surgery is not violence, it is completely different. But even if you are a surgeon you still can't be violent and go around stabbing people.

In the same way a monk, even a Vajrayana monk, cannot have sex. If, on the other hand, they are so evolved (which is extremely rare) they can do something that looks like sex but is as different from sex as surgery is from stabbing someone. But they can no more "have sex" than a surgeon is allowed to stab someone in anger. It is still forbidden. If it ends up being a sexual encounter it is breaking their vows.

It is unimaginable to us that two people can be linked like that and have it be something other than sex. But just because it is beyond our imagination does not mean it is not an actuality. In fact all deep Dharma realizations and practices are beyond our imaginings. Which is why it is so disconcerting for a conservative like me to hear formally secret practices discussed here at DW.

*******************************************************************************************

In fact, the Gelug school was formed in no small part in reaction to the abuse of this practice. Lama Tsongkhapa started a reform movement where the Vinaya was stressed. He himself got to the point in his practice where it would have been appropriate to take a consort but eschewed the practice, not because the practice was either invalid or inappropriate, but because then people with normal awareness would misinterpret his action as him "having sex".
A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.
ChNN
The Gelugpas are very very conservative about this practice. HHDL's office is effectively correct in their denying that it practices. For them it is so rare as to not even be an issue. If that's what you're interested in, then go ask a non-monastic Nyingma lama. They aren't so uptight about it.

HHDL has said that the whole "monks with wives" idea is not Dharma.
Ok Thanks for clarifying it

so, the Taiwanese organization clime is absured then...I still think that this organization even if there clime is true, seems to have links with chinese government

plwk
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by plwk » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:55 am

Can a monk have sex? No. Full stop. End of discussion.
Right...then there's Ra Lotsawa...

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:00 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:I have just stating my opinion regarding the topic which is some group protesting Tibetan Buddhism...not meant to be provocative

I wasn't aware also until now that the consort practice has been admitted to be exist...so just stating my opinion...thats it
Of course, there is eating yoga, sleeping yoga, yogas for defecating and urinating too, so naturally there is a sexual yoga as well. If you are monk, you do not practice the last one.
what i have learn here from member response, is that, even vajrayana monk can still have sex with consort if they are high practitioner? or so called qualified enough?
That is a difficult point, and your answer will vary depending on who you ask.

smcj
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:23 pm

I know a western monk, fully ordained, that thought that because he practiced Vajrayana he could drink alcohol. He was an active alcoholic. He was breaking his vows, not practicing Vajrayana.

In the same way there are people that misinterpret what the Vajrayana says about consort practice and use a legalistic justification for breaking their vows. Their rationalizations and excuses do not justify their actions. They are harming themselves and the Dharma both.

Unless you can perform miracles on demand you shouldn't even think about trying that stuff (from a Gelug perspective).
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

theanarchist
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by theanarchist » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:01 pm

smcj wrote:
Unless you can perform miracles on demand you shouldn't even think about trying that stuff (from a Gelug perspective).

And why would you.

If you are really at a point where you can do consort practice, it's not a big deal to disrobe and it would be in accordance with any other vehicle to do so, because you probably don't want to be the reason for the misunderstandings and vow-breaking of other practitioners because they take you as an example while not being qualified.

Nyingma lamas often start out as monks and later in their lives become householders. Dilgo Khyentse has done it that way, as has Nyoshul Khenpo.

And by the way, the partner has to have the same qualification, so I imagine it's not easy to find a suitable consort anyway.

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:16 pm

theanarchist wrote:
And by the way, the partner has to have the same qualification, so I imagine it's not easy to find a suitable consort anyway.
They just have to be at the same level do realization or absence thereof. Anyway, with regards to this topic, most people have not received instruction, and really, don't know what they are talking about.

theanarchist
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by theanarchist » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
And by the way, the partner has to have the same qualification, so I imagine it's not easy to find a suitable consort anyway.
They just have to be at the same level do realization or absence thereof. Anyway, with regards to this topic, most people have not received instruction, and really, don't know what they are talking about.

Exactly. But there is the myth that an old lama f--ing some random young girl equals consort practice. :rolling:

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:34 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
theanarchist wrote:
And by the way, the partner has to have the same qualification, so I imagine it's not easy to find a suitable consort anyway.
They just have to be at the same level do realization or absence thereof. Anyway, with regards to this topic, most people have not received instruction, and really, don't know what they are talking about.

Exactly. But there is the myth that an old lama f--ing some random young girl equals consort practice. :rolling:
That is not a myth. Sometimes, in the past, if an older lama had an obstacle to their longevity, they would take a young consort, generally between 16-18 years of age.

smcj
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:18 pm

If you are really at a point where you can do consort practice, it's not a big deal to disrobe and it would be in accordance with any other vehicle to do so, because you probably don't want to be the reason for the misunderstandings and vow-breaking of other practitioners because they take you as an example while not being qualified.
There is that option. However it leaves the door wide open for abuse, as has been demonstrated extensively in here in the West.

If someone that hasn't taken a vow of celibacy wants to have sex, let them have sex. But using an advanced Vajrayana practice as a pretext for normal sex is sacrilege imo.

A translator for a high Kagyu lama (who was a monk and therefore off limits) told me that women would often come up to him and want to "do tantra" with him. His reply was, "If you want to have sex ok, but don't ask me to call it tantra."
Last edited by smcj on Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

WeiHan
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:35 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Ok Thanks for clarifying it

so, the Taiwanese organization clime is absured then...I still think that this organization even if there clime is true, seems to have links with chinese government
I have already said previously that this organisation is not even considered legitimate even among chinese Mahayana in Taiwan. This organisation is headed by a few business men and they have their own theory about meditation and getting enlightenment that is so alien even to Chinese Mahayana. I have searched the internet and true enough, they have been invited to give talks in China appearing in tv programmes.

As for the "sex practice", you must understand Buddhism from a broader perspective. The goal of Buddhism is to attain a state of enlightenment in mind so that one can better benefit others. In Vajrayana, the theory goes very deep into cultivating a subtle state of mind when insight which leads to enlightenment in this life can be attained. This subtle state of mind can be attained through yogic practices, it is also present when one is about to fall asleep, when one yawns, when one is at the climax of sexual ecstasy and when one dies etc... However, for ordinary people like us, the moment of this subtle state of mind is too short and we are unable to utilise it for insight which leads to enlightenment within this split second moment. the purpose of these yogas which includes entering into sexual union then is to prolong and stabilise this subtle state of mind and use it to attain enlightenment. Do you call this having sex if the person involved is fully occupied with utilising an induced subtle state of mind for insight rather than enjoying engross in the bliss of sex at that moment?

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:31 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
BrianG wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: all of these sex images and whatever sex thing that presented in tibetan buddhism for indicating on other things that has nothing to do with sex as your statement above, it is still not Buddhist...these ideas taken from Hinduism and they use the same thing, but different terms
It's Buddhist. Consort practice was introduced by Mahasiddhas(Buddhist Yogis), who received the teaching from the Buddha.
Padmasambava has nothing to do with Buddha...he was a hindu yogi and mahasiddha, which is similiar to shiva and shakti tantric concept..just change the name and the terms to buddhist, such as bodhisatava..bodhi..etc..Lord Buddha never make or teach anything in secret..nor sexual...these beliefes that so called desire can be switched to enlightment is so absured, and have nothing to do with original buddha teaching that is found in Agamas, or Nikayas
I'll be blunt, I don't think you have any real idea what you are talking about. Secondly, disparaging other forms of Buddhism in this manner is against the ToS, if you did not notice, this is a Mahayana/Vajrayana forum. If the proselytizing continues, the ToS will have to be followed, yadda yadda. Basically, if you want to proselytize against Mahayana or Vajrayana forms of Buddhism and their practices, you should go elsewhere.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:40 pm

smcj wrote:
If someone that hasn't taken a vow of celibacy wants to have sex, let them have sex. But using an advanced Vajrayana practice as a pretext for normal sex is sacrilege imo.
I see, so we are supposed to use eating yoga, sleeping yogas, waking yogas and so on, but when it comes to sex, we are just supposed not integrate this into our practice because it is sex?

That hardly makes any sense at all.

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:51 pm

It hardly makes sense as there's 500M Buddhists on the planet, about 7-8% of the population. Buddhists have certainly been getting it on for the last 2500 years. You'd think we'd be able to talk about it and, as you say, integrate it into practice.
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
If someone that hasn't taken a vow of celibacy wants to have sex, let them have sex. But using an advanced Vajrayana practice as a pretext for normal sex is sacrilege imo.
I see, so we are supposed to use eating yoga, sleeping yogas, waking yogas and so on, but when it comes to sex, we are just supposed not integrate this into our practice because it is sex?

That hardly makes any sense at all.

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:01 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote:It hardly makes sense as there's 500M Buddhists on the planet, about 7-8% of the population. Buddhists have certainly been getting it on for the last 2500 years. You'd think we'd be able to talk about it and, as you say, integrate it into practice.
Well, Buddhism /= Buddhadharma.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:26 am

Malcolm wrote:I see, so we are supposed to use eating yoga, sleeping yogas, waking yogas and so on, but when it comes to sex, we are just supposed not integrate this into our practice because it is sex?

That hardly makes any sense at all.
If the eating, sleeping, waking and defecating yogas were somehow equivalent to karmamudra then there would be plenty of thankas of deities eating, sleeping and defecating. Karmamudra is different.

Tsongkhapa deferred his final realizations until death (the moment of death affords the same spiritual opportunity for an advanced practitioner as does karmamudra) by eschewing consort practice. He did it exactly to avoid the kinds of problems that are manifesting today in the age of the internet. It seems a reasonable thing to do for a true bodhisattva.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:54 am

WeiHan wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Ok Thanks for clarifying it

so, the Taiwanese organization clime is absured then...I still think that this organization even if there clime is true, seems to have links with chinese government
I have already said previously that this organisation is not even considered legitimate even among chinese Mahayana in Taiwan. This organisation is headed by a few business men and they have their own theory about meditation and getting enlightenment that is so alien even to Chinese Mahayana. I have searched the internet and true enough, they have been invited to give talks in China appearing in tv programmes.
interesting information

do you have the link of their appearance in China's TV?

if they are linked to China, which I believe it is..why would China create a group who have different beliefes than the rest of Chinese Mahayana?
Thats wierd also

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:02 am

WeiHan wrote:
As for the "sex practice", you must understand Buddhism from a broader perspective. The goal of Buddhism is to attain a state of enlightenment in mind so that one can better benefit others. In Vajrayana, the theory goes very deep into cultivating a subtle state of mind when insight which leads to enlightenment in this life can be attained. This subtle state of mind can be attained through yogic practices, it is also present when one is about to fall asleep, when one yawns, when one is at the climax of sexual ecstasy and when one dies etc... However, for ordinary people like us, the moment of this subtle state of mind is too short and we are unable to utilise it for insight which leads to enlightenment within this split second moment. the purpose of these yogas which includes entering into sexual union then is to prolong and stabilise this subtle state of mind and use it to attain enlightenment. Do you call this having sex if the person involved is fully occupied with utilising an induced subtle state of mind for insight rather than enjoying engross in the bliss of sex at that moment?
I don't want to create controversies by answering this question, because my opinion based on Mahayana Buddhism..therefore, I think sex cannot be part of enligthment path, as Buddha has said in Pali Tripitaka as will as Taisho tripitaka, The Tibetan tantras have additional scriptures, which believe in transfering the negative energy into positive one which is enlightment..however, according to other sources, Buddha has cut everything to reach enlightment, he won't engage in sex, or any other sexual form, including tantric one, to avoid attachment as will as negative Karma that might be the result

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by BrianG » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:09 am

ShineeSeoul wrote: I don't want to create controversies by answering this question, because my opinion based on Mahayana Buddhism..therefore, I think sex cannot be part of enligthment path, as Buddha has said in Pali Tripitaka as will as Taisho tripitaka, The Tibetan tantras have additional scriptures, which believe in transfering the negative energy into positive one which is enlightment..however, according to other sources, Buddha has cut everything to reach enlightment, he won't engage in sex, or any other sexual form, including tantric one, to avoid attachment as will as negative Karma that might be the result
The three poisons are ignorance, attachment, and aversion. Being averse to sex is as bad as being attached to it. Also, sex is ethically neutral, therefore unlike murder, it does not inherently generate negative karma. However, if a monk has promised to not have sex, and engages in sex, breaking his promise, that will generate negative karma. If a layperson does, assuming it's not with someone else's wife, that is not a problem.

"The Buddha said this and that", is a weak way to validate the Dharma. If that's important to you, then why not practice Islam? A Muslim will say that everything the prophet Mohammad said is true.

The Buddha gave precise instructions on how to validate the Dharma, in the Kalama Sutra

You need to practice it to validate it. If you haven't validated the Dharma, then you have no direct experience of whether the teaching is true or not.

If someone says "This isn't a path to Buddhahood", in reference to a tradition that takes refuge in the Triple Gem and doesn't violate the four seals, then they should be able to display miracles/recall past lives, otherwise they are just being pretentious.
Telepaths - I like to kill them

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:41 am

BrianG wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: I don't want to create controversies by answering this question, because my opinion based on Mahayana Buddhism..therefore, I think sex cannot be part of enligthment path, as Buddha has said in Pali Tripitaka as will as Taisho tripitaka, The Tibetan tantras have additional scriptures, which believe in transfering the negative energy into positive one which is enlightment..however, according to other sources, Buddha has cut everything to reach enlightment, he won't engage in sex, or any other sexual form, including tantric one, to avoid attachment as will as negative Karma that might be the result
The three poisons are ignorance, attachment, and aversion. Being averse to sex is as bad as being attached to it. Also, sex is ethically neutral, therefore unlike murder, it does not inherently generate negative karma. However, if a monk has promised to not have sex, and engages in sex, breaking his promise, that will generate negative karma. If a layperson does, assuming it's not with someone else's wife, that is not a problem.

"The Buddha said this and that", is a weak way to validate the Dharma. If that's important to you, then why not practice Islam? A Muslim will say that everything the prophet Mohammad said is true.

The Buddha gave precise instructions on how to validate the Dharma, in the Kalama Sutra

You need to practice it to validate it. If you haven't validated the Dharma, then you have no direct experience of whether the teaching is true or not.

If someone says "This isn't a path to Buddhahood", in reference to a tradition that takes refuge in the Triple Gem and doesn't violate the four seals, then they should be able to display miracles/recall past lives, otherwise they are just being pretentious.
the meditation and all other buddhist practices we practice is based on Buddha Vacana, we cannot just simply throw the buddha vacana and said we want to practice ourself from our own, and then we clime this is from Buddhism...everybody of course, follow what they believe in working with her or him, but affilated with buddhism, is not right thing if the practice is not based on it

I am former muslim, and just saying following islam because someone want to believe in every word that have been said is just doesn't make sense..islam have its own teaching that contradict buddhism, and I believe if islam is followed, its certainly will lead to hell from Buddhist viewpoint

I don't want to go to further debate about this thing...its not related to topic

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