Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

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Ivo
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:24 am

Very strange posts here by people who have obviously never received detailed instructions on any form of consort practice. Urgyen Dorje had made an excellent post here, which somehow got ignored. Also Malcolm mentioned somewhat subtly the yoga of passion several times in his own excellent posts, also without anyone taking much notice. The practices of karmamudra which work with the subtle winds and essences and which people for some reason always reference when they talk about "sex and buddhism" are actually the least widespread sexual practices in Vajrayana. The yoga of passion and other similar instructions are much more practiced, especially these days by practitioners who are also working with Dzogchen. And they are much easier to apply. Basically anyone who has received them and has a solid understanding of Dzogchen as presented by ChNN can apply such instructions with some success.

I doubt that anyone in his/her right mind would go to seek detailed vinaya instruction from an ascetic yogi or from a Nyngma ngakpa. Why on earth do you quote explanations and opinions about sexual practices given by monks? Tibetan lamas specialize in different things. It goes somehow as common knowledge that a high lama should be able to give valid comments on any Dharma related topic or practice. In the real world, this is definitely not the case. Every solid Tibetan practitioner knows that if you want to really learn yoga you go to a yogi. If you want pure vinaya you go to take the precepts from a pure holder of the vinaya. That's how it works. With all my respect to the Gelug lineage, but you just can not quote Gelug sources when you talk about real consort practice. It is a monastic tradition, they specialize in other things. When I studied with my lamas I was given a list of a very few yogis who were considered experts in consort practice, a list of about four names, in fact, spread across Bhutan, India and Nepal. Everyone who really wanted these instructions was expected to go to them, and all the nyingma lamas who wanted this also went to these yogis. The same is true for advanced trulkhor to this very day, although the list of yogis is longer, of course. That's how Dharma lineages work - you receive a certain lineage from those who are keeping it alive. I have great respect for H.H. the Dalai Lama, I have received teachings from him, but I would never go to seek detailed karmamudra instruction from him, or even an opinion. It just does not make sense at all. When I wanted this I went to the people who actually practiced it. Now the times have changed somewhat and every young tibetan tulku is suddenly expert in everything. So fast things are degenerating, especially in regards to the yogic tradition. But I think that, as Malcolm mentioned, if one really wants to receive these kind of things nowadays, it is probably easiest to just take the Lamdre. At least there the lineages are still pristine.

So... some Chinese are making fuss about all this and are printing posters. Big deal. As someone mentioned here in the thread, good that they didn't pick up some forceful liberation practices, then TB would be in trouble :) In fact, in the light of modern mentality, these posters may as well be seen by some as free advertizing :)

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:13 am

Ivo wrote:Very strange posts here by people who have obviously never received detailed instructions on any form of consort practice. Urgyen Dorje had made an excellent post here, which somehow got ignored. Also Malcolm mentioned somewhat subtly the yoga of passion several times in his own excellent posts, also without anyone taking much notice. The practices of karmamudra which work with the subtle winds and essences and which people for some reason always reference when they talk about "sex and buddhism" are actually the least widespread sexual practices in Vajrayana. The yoga of passion and other similar instructions are much more practiced, especially these days by practitioners who are also working with Dzogchen. And they are much easier to apply. Basically anyone who has received them and has a solid understanding of Dzogchen as presented by ChNN can apply such instructions with some success.

I doubt that anyone in his/her right mind would go to seek detailed vinaya instruction from an ascetic yogi or from a Nyngma ngakpa. Why on earth do you quote explanations and opinions about sexual practices given by monks? Tibetan lamas specialize in different things. It goes somehow as common knowledge that a high lama should be able to give valid comments on any Dharma related topic or practice. In the real world, this is definitely not the case. Every solid Tibetan practitioner knows that if you want to really learn yoga you go to a yogi. If you want pure vinaya you go to take the precepts from a pure holder of the vinaya. That's how it works. With all my respect to the Gelug lineage, but you just can not quote Gelug sources when you talk about real consort practice. It is a monastic tradition, they specialize in other things. When I studied with my lamas I was given a list of a very few yogis who were considered experts in consort practice, a list of about four names, in fact, spread across Bhutan, India and Nepal. Everyone who really wanted these instructions was expected to go to them, and all the nyingma lamas who wanted this also went to these yogis. The same is true for advanced trulkhor to this very day, although the list of yogis is longer, of course. That's how Dharma lineages work - you receive a certain lineage from those who are keeping it alive. I have great respect for H.H. the Dalai Lama, I have received teachings from him, but I would never go to seek detailed karmamudra instruction from him, or even an opinion. It just does not make sense at all. When I wanted this I went to the people who actually practiced it. Now the times have changed somewhat and every young tibetan tulku is suddenly expert in everything. So fast things are degenerating, especially in regards to the yogic tradition. But I think that, as Malcolm mentioned, if one really wants to receive these kind of things nowadays, it is probably easiest to just take the Lamdre. At least there the lineages are still pristine.

So... some Chinese are making fuss about all this and are printing posters. Big deal. As someone mentioned here in the thread, good that they didn't pick up some forceful liberation practices, then TB would be in trouble :) In fact, in the light of modern mentality, these posters may as well be seen by some as free advertizing :)
what is forceful liberation practice?

so thats mean consort practice and karmamudra doesn't exist in geluge tradition?

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:20 am

Ivo wrote:
So... some Chinese are making fuss about all this and are printing posters. Big deal. As someone mentioned here in the thread, good that they didn't pick up some forceful liberation practices, then TB would be in trouble :) In fact, in the light of modern mentality, these posters may as well be seen by some as free advertizing :)
As I said, it is not really the Chinese. This group has a political agenda. Their goal is to create a "unique" chinese style buddhism.....This talking line just appears suspiciously similar in the Chinese government recent crackdown on christian churches. you guess what..The official says that it is part of the movement to create a chinese style christianity. They want to create a certain brand of religions that chinese adhered to and follow the prophet heads they install.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:51 am

WeiHan wrote:
Ivo wrote:
So... some Chinese are making fuss about all this and are printing posters. Big deal. As someone mentioned here in the thread, good that they didn't pick up some forceful liberation practices, then TB would be in trouble :) In fact, in the light of modern mentality, these posters may as well be seen by some as free advertizing :)
The official says that it is part of the movement to create a chinese style christianity
wow they say it officialy!

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by udawa » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:02 pm

Ivo wrote:Very strange posts here by people who have obviously never received detailed instructions on any form of consort practice. Urgyen Dorje had made an excellent post here, which somehow got ignored. Also Malcolm mentioned somewhat subtly the yoga of passion several times in his own excellent posts, also without anyone taking much notice. The practices of karmamudra which work with the subtle winds and essences and which people for some reason always reference when they talk about "sex and buddhism" are actually the least widespread sexual practices in Vajrayana. The yoga of passion and other similar instructions are much more practiced, especially these days by practitioners who are also working with Dzogchen. And they are much easier to apply. Basically anyone who has received them and has a solid understanding of Dzogchen as presented by ChNN can apply such instructions with some success.

I doubt that anyone in his/her right mind would go to seek detailed vinaya instruction from an ascetic yogi or from a Nyngma ngakpa. Why on earth do you quote explanations and opinions about sexual practices given by monks? Tibetan lamas specialize in different things. It goes somehow as common knowledge that a high lama should be able to give valid comments on any Dharma related topic or practice. In the real world, this is definitely not the case. Every solid Tibetan practitioner knows that if you want to really learn yoga you go to a yogi. If you want pure vinaya you go to take the precepts from a pure holder of the vinaya. That's how it works. With all my respect to the Gelug lineage, but you just can not quote Gelug sources when you talk about real consort practice. It is a monastic tradition, they specialize in other things. When I studied with my lamas I was given a list of a very few yogis who were considered experts in consort practice, a list of about four names, in fact, spread across Bhutan, India and Nepal. Everyone who really wanted these instructions was expected to go to them, and all the nyingma lamas who wanted this also went to these yogis. The same is true for advanced trulkhor to this very day, although the list of yogis is longer, of course. That's how Dharma lineages work - you receive a certain lineage from those who are keeping it alive. I have great respect for H.H. the Dalai Lama, I have received teachings from him, but I would never go to seek detailed karmamudra instruction from him, or even an opinion. It just does not make sense at all. When I wanted this I went to the people who actually practiced it. Now the times have changed somewhat and every young tibetan tulku is suddenly expert in everything. So fast things are degenerating, especially in regards to the yogic tradition. But I think that, as Malcolm mentioned, if one really wants to receive these kind of things nowadays, it is probably easiest to just take the Lamdre. At least there the lineages are still pristine.

So... some Chinese are making fuss about all this and are printing posters. Big deal. As someone mentioned here in the thread, good that they didn't pick up some forceful liberation practices, then TB would be in trouble :) In fact, in the light of modern mentality, these posters may as well be seen by some as free advertizing :)
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:01 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
WeiHan wrote:
The official says that it is part of the movement to create a chinese style christianity
wow they say it officialy!
In short they distrust Christianity the most. They favor Buddhism in order to defend the fast growing christianity. However, they distrust tibetan buddhism. Brand of Taiwanese Buddhism such as FoGuang and Tzu Chi is better but it is still not as good as some newly created brand which they have full control.

Of course, not officially in that sense that is related to these cases but they have stated elsewhere what is their intention and what they wish to see.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:28 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
what is forceful liberation practice?
Generally, it is when you try to attain liberation so forcefully, that you eventually pass gas. It gets really embarrassing and would make a good "anti TB" AD campaign. It is also very widespread these days, especially among western Dharma followers.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:54 pm

Why on earth do you quote explanations and opinions about sexual practices given by monks?
Well, for one thing, it was a Gelug monk that made the effort to have that specific conversation with me. Never once has the subject come up with any of my Kagyu or Nyingma teachers, either in public or private. Obviously a Nyingmapa would have a different take on things, as I've acknowledged all along.

However, the specific conversation about karmamudra aside, the germane question is; in the Vajrayana, are the mental poisons ever to be indulged in without transmuting them into their corresponding wisdom mind? Is it ok, for instance, to lose your temper because you're "a Vajrayana practitioner"? If so, how is this different than simple samsaric action, with its appropriate karmic result?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:23 pm

I think the germane question is a little different: If you are a non-monastic vajrayana practitioner, and if you are going to have sexual contact-- how are you going to integrate the experience into your practice?

This is why Malcolm brought up eating, sleeping, bathing, using the toilet, as the same question is equally germane.

Sex is not a poison. Attachment and aversion and ignorance are poisons. Sex is just an experience, a phenomena. The analogy with anger is not a good one as anger is generally destructive and motivated by aversion and hatred and a sense of self.

I suppose this question really depends upon how one relates to sex as well. I've always been a serial monogamist, so I've always related to sex as a method of connecting and relating with others, so working to integrate it has never really seemed overly problematic.

smcj wrote:However, the specific conversation about karmamudra aside, the germane question is; in the Vajrayana, are the mental poisons ever to be indulged in without transmuting them into their corresponding wisdom mind? Is it ok, for instance, to lose your temper because you're "a Vajrayana practitioner"? If so, how is this different than simple samsaric action, with its appropriate karmic result?

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:37 pm

smcj wrote: However, the specific conversation about karmamudra aside, the germane question is; in the Vajrayana, are the mental poisons ever to be indulged in without transmuting them into their corresponding wisdom mind? Is it ok, for instance, to lose your temper because you're "a Vajrayana practitioner"? If so, how is this different than simple samsaric action, with its appropriate karmic result?
You should not indulge, of course. It you really lose your temper, then you will of course accumulate the respective karma. But if you just do it in full mindfulness, seeing that the situation needs that and are able to integrate fully, then you should be free to do that. It is of course a very slippery slope for practitioners who are beginners, but on the other hand should not be regarded as superhuman achievement, as it is not. The consort practices are discussed as if they are totally out of reach of normal practitioners, while in fact many such practices are very much doable and suitable for any level headed person who understands what the path is all about. The karmamudra practice with the winds and such is difficult, but I suspect that it also could be useable to many people if the detailed instructions are in the open. This is not happening for many reasons, some of which have to do with the fact that in reality not many lamas actually practice that nowadays and feel confident enough to really transmit it. But after all the taoists disseminated very similar instructions (apart from the view) without problem in the west and many people found it totally useable and possible.

I have never been able to understand this overly timid approach to Vajrayana. It has not been really part of Tibetan culture, at least not in Nyingma and Kagyu and even Sakya. It is largely a modern thing, where Tibetans feel much safer teaching sutra and the lower tantras for decades to people who they do not really understand, rather than give instructions which require the explanation of many fine points and real supervision of the personal practice of the students. It is a sad state of affairs, but no one should freak out at the mention of sexual practices as it is a very normal thing, and very much part of Vajrayana at all levels, including Dzogchen.

Apart from all that, I think Urgyen Dorje's and Malcolm's posts actually very much cover this whole matter.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:40 pm

Ivo wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:
what is forceful liberation practice?
Generally, it is when you try to attain liberation so forcefully, that you eventually pass gas. It gets really embarrassing and would make a good "anti TB" AD campaign. It is also very widespread these days, especially among western Dharma followers.
As I have written in another thread about doing instrumental measurements to test the authenticity of lineage so as to discriminate who are the real lineages and who are the charlatans. I don't think modern people are keen with religious philosophical theories that are not even correct (such as Tathagathagarbha is the Alaya consciousness) but are more willing to listen to real stuffs verifiable by scientific measurements..so why not go to the lab and see who are the real stuffs? hey...compassion can be measured, you know? So, this invitation can be extended to other schools who like to criticise the practices in TB.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:53 pm

It you really lose your temper, then you will of course accumulate the respective karma. But if you just do it in full mindfulness, seeing that the situation needs that and are able to integrate fully, then you should be free to do that. It is of course a very slippery slope for practitioners who are beginners, but on the other hand should not be regarded as superhuman achievement, as it is not.
The impression I have is that "transmuting an affliction into its corresponding wisdom" is a far cry from "being mindful". However this is not something that I feel comfortable discussing further.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:55 pm

smcj wrote:
It you really lose your temper, then you will of course accumulate the respective karma. But if you just do it in full mindfulness, seeing that the situation needs that and are able to integrate fully, then you should be free to do that. It is of course a very slippery slope for practitioners who are beginners, but on the other hand should not be regarded as superhuman achievement, as it is not.
The impression I have is that "transmuting an affliction into its corresponding wisdom" is a far cry from "being mindful". However this is not something that I feel comfortable discussing further.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, not really.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:59 pm

Ivo wrote:
smcj wrote:
It you really lose your temper, then you will of course accumulate the respective karma. But if you just do it in full mindfulness, seeing that the situation needs that and are able to integrate fully, then you should be free to do that. It is of course a very slippery slope for practitioners who are beginners, but on the other hand should not be regarded as superhuman achievement, as it is not.
The impression I have is that "transmuting an affliction into its corresponding wisdom" is a far cry from "being mindful". However this is not something that I feel comfortable discussing further.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, not really.
I'm not a Dzogchen practitioner.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:06 pm

smcj wrote:
Ivo wrote:
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, not really.
I'm not a Dzogchen practitioner.
Fair enough. But in Tantra, how would you ever transmute an affliction into it's wisdom without even going near the affliction itself?
And... as UD pointed out, sex is not even an affliction.
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:48 pm

I studied fairly seriously in the Gelug tradition, and continue to maintain my samaya, such as Six Session Guru Yoga, even as a Drinkungpa. I understand Je Rinpoche's position on this and the example he provided with his own spiritual biography. He chose to achieve liberation in the bardo as opposed to in this life and in his body through the path of the lower door using the body of another. I also understand his motivation as his legacy is the union and synthesis of the sutra and tantra paths. This includes upholding the entire monastic pratimoksha. Je Rinpoche did this as an example as he was a Buddha, an emanation of Manjushri.

If we're going to go down this road, I think it's really important to contextualize this to avoid confusions. The Gelug view is an exclusive rangtonpa view that holds a view of buddhanature that is a mere emptiness of mind's obscurations. The Gelug view refutes self reflexive awareness, rang.rig, and as such, their path does not rely on pointing out as in Nyingma and Kagyu. The view of sutra and tantra are the same, the difference being that the view of prasangika-madhyamaka of Chandrakirti is meditated upon using a more and more subtle mind generated by two stages of tantra. As a gross gloss, the approach is to refine away contaminated appearances by calming and withdrawing the coarse and subtle winds so that emptiness can be abided in or meditated upon with a more and more subtle mind. In the end the clear light dawns.

This is the exact opposite approach used in dzogchen where one is introduced directly to the nature of mind, in a gap or space in confused appearances generated by faith, devotion, love, and purification practices. This is entirely outside the Gelug view, not because it's wrong, or the Gelug view is wrong, but because they are teachings and methods presented for different types of beings. The practice is thus different. The goal is to abide in that experience and to then liberate confused experiences. It's sort of the opposite of the Gelug approach. Instead of refining away confusion so that the clear light can dawn, recognize a glimpse of the clear light nature of mind and then refine away confusion on that basis.

A scholar will find all sorts of problems with this gloss.

I'm just wandering into the deep part of the pool to point out that this is nothing to do with SEX. It's really a difference in methodology. Annutaratantrayoga dzogrim methodology as cast by Je Rinpoche and his followers and Ka-Nying chagchen and dzogchen yogis. We always end up having this conversation in the context of sex, because we're neurotic about sex as a Buddhist noob culture, but in fact, we could have it about a beer, a hamburger, a salad, a cup of tea. We just don't.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:56 pm

But in Tantra, how would you ever transmute an affliction into it's wisdom without even going near the affliction itself?
If you are not capable of transmitting an affliction you shun them and the situations that give rise to them.

If you are an advanced practitioner and are capable of transmuting an affliction into wisdom--which is an extraordinary accomplishment--then you can get near the affliction. Once transmuted it is no longer a poison, but now a medicine, an expression of the enlightened mind. But in either scenario the affliction is never simply indulged in as an affliction per se. That is Vajrayana 101.

I am now posting about any generic affliction. Let us put the issue of sex to the side.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:14 pm

smcj wrote:
But in Tantra, how would you ever transmute an affliction into it's wisdom without even going near the affliction itself?
If you are not capable of transmitting an affliction you shun them and the situations that give rise to them.
No, Vajrayāna is not a path of giving up sense desires.
If you are an advanced practitioner and are capable of transmuting an affliction into wisdom--which is an extraordinary accomplishment--then you can get near the affliction. Once transmuted it is no longer a poison, but now a medicine, an expression of the enlightened mind. But in either scenario the affliction is never simply indulged in as an affliction per se. That is Vajrayana 101.
No. All appearances are the deity. All sounds are mantra. All thoughts are wisdom. This is Vajrayana 101.

The path of transformation means that you do not reject things that cause afflictions to arise; you utilize those things and through the practice of creation stage, transform them. For example, the yoga eating food, the yoga of sleep, washing and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
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[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:22 pm

Malcolm is totally right. We can not be talking about Vajrayana while discussing sutra methods. Or rather, we shouldn't.

The fact is that it is really hard to keep this conversation simple, as it touches upon some very complex themes. On the other hand it is just not possible to discuss all these things in depth without getting into all kinds of problems. But, in short, it probably boils down to the fact that there are many incompatible paths which lead to the same destination. Since the destination is the same (presumably), we all tend to try to make the paths compatible somehow. But they are not. And this is not a problem.

My most important root teacher was a Nyingma monk, regarded by many as one of the purest holders of the vinaya in the tradition. Although I personally do not like the approach which combines sutra and tantra and have spoken about this many times, I know that it is not totally impossible for these paths to be combined genuinely. Buddha Shakyamuni apparently did it. For me, however, that is a much higher accomplishment than the attempt of someone to practice Vajrayana alone in the way it was actually intended to be practiced. Keeping the outer discipline of the vinaya while perfectly keeping the inner discipline of the Vajrayana, well that's something. Too bad that it is virtually impossible to really judge from the outside if this is really happening to someone.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:28 pm

Actually it was Je Rinpoche's approach to unify the sutra and tantra views. It is held that the emptiness that one meditates on conceputally and nonconceptually on the sutra path, is the same emptiness that one meditates on using vajrayana skillful methods, except with a more refined and subtle mind. There's advantages to that view and I appreciate it. One of the advantages does not seem to be an appreciation for a theory and praxis that separates sutra and tantra as having being separate views and methods...
Ivo wrote:Malcolm is totally right. We can not be talking about Vajrayana while discussing sutra methods. Or rather, we shouldn't.

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