Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

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smcj
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:33 pm

But in Tantra, how would you ever transmute an affliction into it's wisdom without even going near the affliction itself?
If you are not capable of transmuting an affliction you shun them and the situations that give rise to them.
No, Vajrayāna is not a path of giving up sense desires.
What I said was that if you are not capable of transmuting an affliction you should shun them and the situations that give rise to them. I did not say that this was the approach of the Vajrayana.
If you are an advanced practitioner and are capable of transmuting an affliction into wisdom--which is an extraordinary accomplishment--then you can get near the affliction. Once transmuted it is no longer a poison, but now a medicine, an expression of the enlightened mind. But in either scenario the affliction is never simply indulged in as an affliction per se. That is Vajrayana 101.
No. All appearances are the deity. All sounds are mantra. All thoughts are wisdom. This is Vajrayana 101.
So are you saying that an affliction, such as anger, can be indulged/acted upon on the level of affliction and call it Vajrayana?
The path of transformation means that you do not reject things that cause afflictions to arise; you utilize those things and through the practice of creation stage, transform them. For example, the yoga eating food, the yoga of sleep, washing and so on.
Yes, as you say, the "path of transformation"--as in transforming an affliction into a wisdom.
The fact is that it is really hard to keep this conversation simple, as it touches upon some very complex themes.
Funny, I think it is very simple. It's not complicated unless you're avoiding the obvious conclusions.


But, in short, it probably boils down to the fact that there are many incompatible paths which lead to the same destination. Since the destination is the same (presumably), we all tend to try to make the paths compatible somehow. But they are not. And this is not a problem.
No, actually the Nyingma 9 yana schema is one way to view it as all paths being compatible. And that view is from the direction of unawareness towards awareness. The same can be said of the view of awareness looking back on unawareness from the enlightened perspective. "All practices are subsumed under the Dzogchen view" (not an exact quote) and of course my favorite; the 1 yana view. (Malcolm hates it.)
Last edited by smcj on Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:40 pm

smcj wrote:
So are you saying that an affliction, such as anger, can be indulged/acted upon on the level of affliction and call it Vajrayana?
It has to be experienced in order to be addressed. It has to be allowed to arise, be seen and recognized.

So yes, one should not suppress one's afflictive states in Vajrayāna practice.

WeiHan
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:49 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote:Actually it was Je Rinpoche's approach to unify the sutra and tantra views. It is held that the emptiness that one meditates on conceputally and nonconceptually on the sutra path, is the same emptiness that one meditates on using vajrayana skillful methods, except with a more refined and subtle mind. There's advantages to that view and I appreciate it. One of the advantages does not seem to be an appreciation for a theory and praxis that separates sutra and tantra as having being separate views and methods...
Ivo wrote:Malcolm is totally right. We can not be talking about Vajrayana while discussing sutra methods. Or rather, we shouldn't.
Which Vajrayana schools teach only tantras methods without teaching sutra foundation such as refuge, bodhicitta etc...prior as a basis..This being so, my question is that is there any tantric method exclusively separate from sutric methods?

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Ivo
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:57 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote: One of the advantages does not seem to be an appreciation for a theory and praxis that separates sutra and tantra as having being separate views and methods...
Well, if my memory serves me well, didn't Buddha Shakyamuni actually teach tantra in answer to a request to give a method which differs from the sutra path? :smile:

smcj
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:59 pm

You very carefully did not answer my question. So let's try this again.

So are you saying that an affliction, such as anger, can be indulged/acted upon on the level of affliction and call it Vajrayana?
It has to be experienced in order to be addressed. It has to be allowed to arise, be seen and recognized.
Right. And if at that point it is not transmuted into enlightened wisdom, and remains an affliction, is that Vajrayana practice or is that samsaric activity?
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:00 pm

It's not a question of teaching tantric methods to the exclusion of sutric methods. It's a question of whether sutra and the different levels of tantra present the same or different views. In Gelug there is one view, sutra and tantra being differentiated only by their methods. That is not the case in other traditions. In Nyingma the nine yanas represent nine distinct views.
WeiHan wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote:Actually it was Je Rinpoche's approach to unify the sutra and tantra views. It is held that the emptiness that one meditates on conceputally and nonconceptually on the sutra path, is the same emptiness that one meditates on using vajrayana skillful methods, except with a more refined and subtle mind. There's advantages to that view and I appreciate it. One of the advantages does not seem to be an appreciation for a theory and praxis that separates sutra and tantra as having being separate views and methods...
Ivo wrote:Malcolm is totally right. We can not be talking about Vajrayana while discussing sutra methods. Or rather, we shouldn't.
Which Vajrayana schools teach only tantras methods without teaching sutra foundation such as refuge, bodhicitta etc...prior as a basis..This being so, my question is that is there any tantric method exclusively separate from sutric methods?

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:04 pm

smcj wrote:You very carefully did not answer my question. So let's try this again.

So are you saying that an affliction, such as anger, can be indulged/acted upon on the level of affliction and call it Vajrayana?
It has to be experienced in order to be addressed. It has to be allowed to arise, be seen and recognized.
Right. And if at that point it is not transmuted into enlightened wisdom, and remains an affliction, is that Vajrayana practice or is that samsaric activity?
You are really missing the point. When you observe anger arise in your mind, as a Vajrayāna practitioner, this is understood to be wisdom. It is not "turned" into wisdom, it always was. Such afflictions are poison because they are not recognized — when they are recognized, they have no power, and therefore, one does not act in ways that produce karma. This Vajrayāna method is very indirect, because it requires a lot of conceptual effort, but in principle it is the same as the the idea of liberation through recognition in Dzogchen.

For example, you become angry, but if you are a Vajrayāna practitioner, you cannot be angry at your own mandala, so when you apply the practice "all appearances are the deity" this cuts the force of anger.

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:05 pm

WeiHan wrote: Which Vajrayana schools teach only tantras methods without teaching sutra foundation such as refuge, bodhicitta etc...prior as a basis..
Dzogchen.

Garab Dorje never said:

"Get a Tibetan name, then start out with the four immeasurables, etc."

He said, "Have the encounter of self-recognition." aka, "direct introduction."
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:06 pm

Sure. That's a legitimate point as well.

I'm just pointing out the unity of sutra and tantra as expressed by my Gelug teachers.

A good example being Je Rinpoche's three principal paths. They are said to be renunciation, bodhicitta, and the mind apprehending emptiness. On the level of kye rim these mean analogous things. Renunciation is meditation on the deity to overcome ordinary appearances, On the level of dzog rim it is also analogous. Renunciation is dissolving the winds into the central channel. Regardless it's within the view of prasangika-madhyamaka.
Ivo wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote: One of the advantages does not seem to be an appreciation for a theory and praxis that separates sutra and tantra as having being separate views and methods...
Well, if my memory serves me well, didn't Buddha Shakyamuni actually teach tantra in answer to a request to give a method which differs from the sutra path? :smile:

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:07 pm

And now the waters should be nicely chummed.

<off to make a sandwhich>
Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote: Which Vajrayana schools teach only tantras methods without teaching sutra foundation such as refuge, bodhicitta etc...prior as a basis..
Dzogchen.

WeiHan
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote: Which Vajrayana schools teach only tantras methods without teaching sutra foundation such as refuge, bodhicitta etc...prior as a basis..
Dzogchen.
I am not sure which Dzogchen lineage does that nowaday . Are you refering to the pure Dzogchen during Garab Dorje's time?

Malcolm
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:13 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
WeiHan wrote: Which Vajrayana schools teach only tantras methods without teaching sutra foundation such as refuge, bodhicitta etc...prior as a basis..
Dzogchen.
I am not sure which Dzogchen lineage does that nowaday .
Dzogchen Community of course.

WeiHan
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:14 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote:Sure. That's a legitimate point as well.

I'm just pointing out the unity of sutra and tantra as expressed by my Gelug teachers.

A good example being Je Rinpoche's three principal paths. They are said to be renunciation, bodhicitta, and the mind apprehending emptiness. On the level of kye rim these mean analogous things. Renunciation is meditation on the deity to overcome ordinary appearances, On the level of dzog rim it is also analogous. Renunciation is dissolving the winds into the central channel. Regardless it's within the view of prasangika-madhyamaka.
Well...Dzogchen also taught that. When one rests in Rigpa, it is ultimate refuge, it is ultimate bodhicitta etc... Dzogchen also integrate the sutric path with the tantric path.

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Ivo
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:17 pm

WeiHan wrote:
I am not sure which Dzogchen lineage does that nowaday . Are you refering to the pure Dzogchen during Garab Dorje's time?
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does. However, Dzogchen is Dzogchen. Even when it is presented as a culmination of a gradual path starting from sutra (very rarely), the Dzogchen corpus of teachings itself is still standalone. You won't find any discussion of sutra topics, including refuge and bodhichitta, in the dzogchen practice manuals.
WeiHan wrote: Well...Dzogchen also taught that. When one rests in Rigpa, it is ultimate refuge, it is ultimate bodhicitta etc... Dzogchen also integrate the sutric path with the tantric path.
What does this have to do with sutra??

smcj
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:20 pm

You are really missing the point.
No I'm not. I know exactly what you are talking about.
When you observe anger arise in your mind, as a Vajrayāna practitioner, this is understood to be wisdom. It is not "turned" into wisdom, it always was.
Right. Always was, regardless of whether you are a Vajrayana practitioner, a Shravakan, or even a dog or cat.
Such afflictions are poison because they are not recognized — when they are recognized, they have no power, and therefore, one does not act in ways that produce karma.
Right. So to rephrase my question in the terms you just used; when the afflictions are not recognized for what they are (wisdoms), and still have the power of poisons to produce karma, is that Vajrayana practice or samsaric activity?
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

WeiHan
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:31 pm

Just a side note, I don't think it was only Tsong Khapa who refused to take a consort. Great comtemporary Gurus such as Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok also refused to take consort despite there was a clearly destined one for him.

This Dza Patrul Rinpoche from Tibet also declined to take consort despite one destined one that was predicted by HH Sakya Trizin and other high lamas.

http://www.dza-patrul.org/desktop/Publi ... 2&PageID=1

His refusal caused the first karmically linked girl to pass away after a short awhile.

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:34 pm

What's sort of interesting to me is that if you're a Chan or Zen practitioner and assert that your practice is not based on sutric teachings-- sit and apply ones method-- then it's cool. But if a dzogchenpa says it, people go insane.

WeiHan
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:37 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote:What's sort of interesting to me is that if you're a Chan or Zen practitioner and assert that your practice is not based on sutric teachings-- sit and apply ones method-- then it's cool. But if a dzogchenpa says it, people go insane.
I am not sure about others but for me I distrust the efficacy of such zen and chan that is without renunciation and bodhicitta as foundation. It is not cool.

theanarchist
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by theanarchist » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:53 pm

If you don't renounce, it's not buddhism.

Even in Dzogchen you have to renounce your samsaric views, attachment, aversion, ignorance etc. You can not keep your delusions, while being enlightened, no matter which set of teachings you follow.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Post by Ivo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:00 pm

theanarchist wrote:If you don't renounce, it's not buddhism.

Even in Dzogchen you have to renounce your samsaric views, attachment, aversion, ignorance etc. You can not keep your delusions, while being enlightened, no matter which set of teachings you follow.
Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation, not by any stretch of the imagination.

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