Vajra Hell

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Heruka
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Heruka »

i can understand why people only wish to desire happy conditions and pleasure states. it must come from a place of denial, away from the unhappy conditions and misery states. that seems quite a normal human condition and desire. so rejecting either idea or real place of a vajra hell is quite normal. we dont have to acknowledge it or give it much contemplation, rebirth is not essential to know or understand, the four noble truths are just statements or musings of a renunciate, and not applicable to modern life.
muni
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by muni »

muni wrote:It all starts by mistaken perception and its grasping. It is said that a content-happy being will never harm.
Teaching shows love is the medicine. I am not saying hug-kiss whole day long, but such poor state is already strongly suffering, therefore genuine concern for suffering/help can only be by our own insight.
Maybe a reason to practice in Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana.

:soapbox: two babbling cents.
I must be careful what I write here. If someone is acting in a state of anger or hatred, to remain aware is once own practice. Through insight only, right help can be.

So not through clinging-love.
AlexanderS
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by AlexanderS »

Anders wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:31 pm AFAIK Vajra hell is a special feature of Vajrayana - only practitioners who break samaya in ways gruelling enough to go there can end up in the vajra hells, which is below even avici (although I believe there are some who say that it is more like an aspect of the avici hells).
What could be such a thing?
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Aryjna
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Aryjna »

AlexanderS wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 9:27 pm
Anders wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:31 pm AFAIK Vajra hell is a special feature of Vajrayana - only practitioners who break samaya in ways gruelling enough to go there can end up in the vajra hells, which is below even avici (although I believe there are some who say that it is more like an aspect of the avici hells).
What could be such a thing?
Avici and the vajra hell are the same thing. You can read more about it in Words of my perfect teacher.
AlexanderS
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by AlexanderS »

What samayas are gruelling enough?
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Josef
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Josef »

AlexanderS wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 11:13 pm What samayas are gruelling enough?
Any of them, really.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Aryjna wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Anders wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:31 pm AFAIK Vajra hell is a special feature of Vajrayana - only practitioners who break samaya in ways gruelling enough to go there can end up in the vajra hells, which is below even avici (although I believe there are some who say that it is more like an aspect of the avici hells).
Avici and the vajra hell are the same thing. You can read more about it in Words of my perfect teacher.
I don't have that text available now, but I'll check it out later.
It seems to me though that avici hell and vajra hell wouldn't be the same thing because ordinary people and those who do the five major sins can end up there. On the other hand, vajra hell is usually conceived of as being specifically or only or particularly for vajrayana practitioners who have broken samaya.
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Aryjna
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Aryjna »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 3:22 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Anders wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:31 pm AFAIK Vajra hell is a special feature of Vajrayana - only practitioners who break samaya in ways gruelling enough to go there can end up in the vajra hells, which is below even avici (although I believe there are some who say that it is more like an aspect of the avici hells).
Avici and the vajra hell are the same thing. You can read more about it in Words of my perfect teacher.
I don't have that text available now, but I'll check it out later.
It seems to me though that avici hell and vajra hell wouldn't be the same thing because ordinary people and those who do the five major sins can end up there. On the other hand, vajra hell is usually conceived of as being specifically or only or particularly for vajrayana practitioners who have broken samaya.
According to Words, you can only go to avici for the five major sins and samaya related reasons.
Tenma
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Tenma »

Can one escape Vajra Hell if they end up in it?
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Tenma wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:36 pm Can one escape Vajra Hell if they end up in it?
If someone's family and friends pray to Ksitigarbha and have a vegetarian feast for the monks and all that from the sutra, they will be fine.
Or have some good monks do 焰口.
Otherwise it's a long wait but like everything else, nothing lasts forever.
amitabha
amanitamusc
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by amanitamusc »

Tenma wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:36 pm Can one escape Vajra Hell if they end up in it?
Its all in your head :tongue:
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Fortyeightvows »

amanitamusc wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:31 am
Tenma wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:36 pm Can one escape Vajra Hell if they end up in it?
Its all in your head :tongue:
That is only from the perspective of the enlightened being. For us here on the ground, it is of limited utility.
If your own life circumstances are in calamity, does being reminded that "it's all in your head" help?
amanitamusc
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by amanitamusc »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:41 am
amanitamusc wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:31 am
Tenma wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 5:36 pm Can one escape Vajra Hell if they end up in it?
Its all in your head :tongue:
That is only from the perspective of the enlightened being. For us here on the ground, it is of limited utility.
If your own life circumstances are in calamity, does being reminded that "it's all in your head" help?
All i know.
Malcolm
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Malcolm »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 3:22 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Anders wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:31 pm AFAIK Vajra hell is a special feature of Vajrayana - only practitioners who break samaya in ways gruelling enough to go there can end up in the vajra hells, which is below even avici (although I believe there are some who say that it is more like an aspect of the avici hells).
Avici and the vajra hell are the same thing. You can read more about it in Words of my perfect teacher.
I don't have that text available now, but I'll check it out later.
It seems to me though that avici hell and vajra hell wouldn't be the same thing because ordinary people and those who do the five major sins can end up there. On the other hand, vajra hell is usually conceived of as being specifically or only or particularly for vajrayana practitioners who have broken samaya.
They are in fact the same hell.
Natan
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Natan »

Trungpa gave an interesting talk on Vajra Hell. For a mantra charged practitioner gone bad, every bad intent manifests and is a constant reminder of the vajra nature but it’s like seeing thru a two way mirror. You see it. But it doesn’t see you. It eludes you manifesting ever more fury. The Rudra manifests for real. I would think the only way out is to be crushed by the wrathful Buddhas.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by dzogchungpa »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:31 pm Trungpa gave an interesting talk on Vajra Hell. For a mantra charged practitioner gone bad, every bad intent manifests and is a constant reminder of the vajra nature but it’s like seeing thru a two way mirror. You see it. But it doesn’t see you. It eludes you manifesting ever more fury. The Rudra manifests for real. I would think the only way out is to be crushed by the wrathful Buddhas.

Reference?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Natan
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Natan »

There’s this new thing called “Google”. You should check it out
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Natan
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Natan »

Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by dzogchungpa »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:48 pm There’s this new thing called “Google”. You should check it out
'
Will do.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Vajra Hell

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

This may be the state; from page 66 of Words:
1.1.8 The Hell of Ultimate Torment

This is an immense edifice of blazing hot metal, surrounded by the sixteen
Neighbouring Hells. In it Yama's henchmen toss incalculable numbers of
beings into the centre of a mountain of pieces of red-hot iron, glowing
like live coals. They whip up the flames with bellows of tiger and
leopard-skin until the bodies of their victims and the fire become indistinguishable.
Their suffering is tremendous. Apart from the cries of distress,
there is no longer any indication of the presence of actual bodies.
They constantly long to escape, but it never happens. Sometimes there is
a small gap in the fire and they think they can get out, but the workers
hit them with spears, clubs, hammers and other weapons and they are
subjected to all the agonies of the seven previous hells, such as having
molten bronze poured into their mouths.

Lifespan here is a whole intermediate kalpa. It is called the Hell of
Ultimate Torment because there could be no worse torment elsewhere.
It is the hell where those who have committed the five crimes with
immediate retribution, and practitioners of the Mantrayana who develop
adverse views regarding the Vajra Master, are reborn. No other actions
have the power to cause rebirth here.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
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