Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:06 am

Man, Minobu.

I'll tell you what.

This shit for me is real. It's like touching the f#$kin third rail.

There's the stories and tales that are as true as they are lies. They evoke thoughts and feelings, like a master story teller...

'Let my inspiration flow
in token lines suggesting rhythm
that will not forsake me
till my tale is told and done
While the firelight's aglow
strange shadows in the flames will grow
till things we've never seen
will seem familiar...

Here's a yarn about how a being enlightened as a Buddha sees the world and relates to us - the Buddha is telling us in this sutra what it's like trying to talk to us dense little things. He has to make up stuff, dumb it down, because the reality is too far gone. Still, he vowed to make us his equal, and the Buddha keeps his vows.

How can that story be anything but an intimation? A suggestion? A simile? A metaphor? How can the Buddha possibly relate his awakening except to take the vocabulary of words and ideas we, in our confused state, stew in, scarcely seeing beyond these words? How do you relate to experiences you've never had? Talk about something you have no words for? How does this cosmic being relate to a person who has scarcely left her hometown? If he didn't modulate, he'd be unintelligible to most of us.

In the sutras before the lotus, the Buddha is presenting himself as being on the level, more or less just like us, just enlightened. Here we learn that actually, he's going out of his way to hang with us, putting on rags and shoveling shit because this is what we feel like we need to do. We feel like we're all polluted and impure, and that we have to scrub - 'out damn spot!' The Buddha, worried about us, concerned, wondering how to make us His equal, stays near, and little by little nudges us along the path, until we're ready and then takes us by the shoulders, looks us in the eyes and says,

Do you get it now?

THIS is the real.

And you say, yeah, I think so, because you do.

And then you look back and see that at each moment you thought you were stumbling along led to this moment, and it was all so. The asteroid remarkably hitting the center of the crater, an event that was billions of years in the making. You thought you were working hard and earning promotions, but really, it was just a question of when would it be that the truth that you already own the estate would not freak you out? What is a sufficient rest in the phantom city? When do you deserve the jewel from the King's top knot? What will it take to get you to take the medicine that will cure you immediately? When does the junkie kick?

When he's ready.

Sometimes, the Buddha tells you when you don't think you are ready... And it goes down hard, like telling your child that they're old enough to know, Santa is Mom and Dad. Like knocking the works out of your friends hand and dragging them to an intervention, or tricking them to come down to it by telling them, Dad is dead.

This is no dream. The difficulties posed by false notions of self and everything else is just the distortion we need to work out, but fundamentally, it's friggin happening. This is not a test. There are no do overs of this moment. Ikeda would explain, this Buddhism is serious - it's life and death, victory or defeat.

The Buddha is the one already coursing in the real. When you get there he says, 'goddamn took you long enough. Now, pick up a shovel- there's all these beings who think they need to shovel shit. Get down and hang out with them'

It's not a lie. Knowing the Buddha's ways should not discourage you. Instead, you should realize the Buddha is letting you in on his secret and transcendental powers to show you, this elaborate show does have a point, one which you can enter right now simply by deciding that you accept it.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:34 am

One more comment and I really have to go to sleep.

I assume you've seen the Karate Kid.

Ralph Machio goes to Pat Morita to learn karate but Pat just has him wash and wax cars. Ralph gets frustrated and then Pat shows him, the wax on, wax off motions are the same as blocks. You see the same trope in old Jackie Chan Kung Fu movies... I suppose it's an old martial arts trope.

Just take the medicine, the physician tells us, don't worry that it doesn't cure you.

Buddha let's you in on the secret because at some level you suspect it's all just a tall tale. Buddha shows you, wax on, wax off.
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Wayfarer » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:36 am

@Queequeg - would you recommend Brook Ziporyn's books? I have had a few people refer to them on various forums (not only this one) and his seems a pretty provocative interpretation.

(We were told the Wax On/Wax Off parable years ago when I did Landmark Forum, by the way. Stayed with me.)
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:54 pm

Wayfarer,
Yes. I recommend Ziporyn with this caveat that may or may not suit: Ziporyn extracts the ideas out of the devoutly Mahayana context. Zhiyi, Zhanran, Saicho, Nichiren, etc., the people who made this teaching a living tradition were deeply Mahayana Buddhist. Ziporyn's approach is pretty iconoclastic and outrageous at times.

Ziporyn defangs the Mahayana aspect... He puts Tiantai in terms that might be more accessible for a Western philosophical audience... I suppose he's thereby practicing the Lotus...

Evil as Good is a more traditionally scholarly work. Being and Ambiguity is on the whimsical side. Emptiness and Omnipresence he apparently wrote for his undergrads. I think the last is probably the best intro to Tiantai because that is it's purpose, whereas intro to Tiantai is not quite the point of the others.
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Minobu » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:41 pm

So , i'm reading and reading...
in the mean time..

what about Daimoku, the practice...the medicine as you put it...thoughts on that in accordance to the Ceremony in The Air is nothing more than fiction
The only real imperium is a wax on wax off lesson in the classic sense of the dramatic arts..

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby The Cicada » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:33 pm

Minobu wrote:So in the thread we have a worry about a tale we know is a parable about being lied to...and then of course other parts of the Sutra that I'm sure in the former and middle days of the Law people believed with all their heart and soul that it happened.

I'm sure Nichiren Daishonin even believed the Sutra was done directly from Buddha and stored in safe keeping by Nagas....The man prayed whole heartedly to Hachiman a god of Japan.....prayed to spirits near a pond for rain...etc...etc...

Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies. — Joseph Campbell

It's improbable that a giant stupa-craft approached the Earth when the last Buddha delivered the Lotus Sutra—but not impossible. How much does modern science really know about the nature of the mind and how it interacts with reality? Maybe beings from other worlds and realms look at our brightest minds the way we look at Aristotle, who was the kind of person that would thick-headedly assume that because something is so that it must necessarily be so. Very presumptive for a mind that was relatively rigorous in relation to his contemporaries and most minds today.

Maybe the History Channel guy isn't wrong because he thinks everything extraordinary is caused by aliens, but because we've always been affected by things far outside our frame of reference. Maybe Lovecraft's work is closer to the truth, with his own personal reaction to that revelation being similar to the Man in Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness" crying "the horror! The horror!" when he realizes that uncivilized Africans and Europeans fundamentally have more in common than not, for better or worse.

But even if the Sutra is all just symbolism with little to no historical content, I think we could term its method of communication mythological semiotics—seeds planted in the mind as stories that begin to germinate and yield the fruits of understanding the closer we come to the truth it was meant to communicate.

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Minobu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:49 am

The Cicada wrote:
Minobu wrote:So in the thread we have a worry about a tale we know is a parable about being lied to...and then of course other parts of the Sutra that I'm sure in the former and middle days of the Law people believed with all their heart and soul that it happened.

I'm sure Nichiren Daishonin even believed the Sutra was done directly from Buddha and stored in safe keeping by Nagas....The man prayed whole heartedly to Hachiman a god of Japan.....prayed to spirits near a pond for rain...etc...etc...

Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies. — Joseph Campbell

It's improbable that a giant stupa-craft approached the Earth when the last Buddha delivered the Lotus Sutra—but not impossible. How much does modern science really know about the nature of the mind and how it interacts with reality? Maybe beings from other worlds and realms look at our brightest minds the way we look at Aristotle, who was the kind of person that would thick-headedly assume that because something is so that it must necessarily be so. Very presumptive for a mind that was relatively rigorous in relation to his contemporaries and most minds today.

Maybe the History Channel guy isn't wrong because he thinks everything extraordinary is caused by aliens, but because we've always been affected by things far outside our frame of reference. Maybe Lovecraft's work is closer to the truth, with his own personal reaction to that revelation being similar to the Man in Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness" crying "the horror! The horror!" when he realizes that uncivilized Africans and Europeans fundamentally have more in common than not, for better or worse.

But even if the Sutra is all just symbolism with little to no historical content, I think we could term its method of communication mythological semiotics—seeds planted in the mind as stories that begin to germinate and yield the fruits of understanding the closer we come to the truth it was meant to communicate.


Ok so i totally understand what you are saying. If you think i have never thought about it in the way you and Q are showing to everyone...you have not really followed all my posts on this...which is fare enough...so there i just told you...i told you as well i have grappled with this for decades...so if you are quoting me and talking to me directly ...you have not a clue as to who i am or what i believe...

but oh wait i just wrote this a few posts up

Minobu wrote:I actually believe Buddhas preach this and like in the Lotus Sutra in some level or realm or plain of existence , or Buddha field or ....i dunno...somewhere it happens as told..


So Like i said in other parts of this forum...it is something not worldy in the sense the ordinary guy gets to see..and please lay off the alien talk when talking to me..a little respect please...

so like if it was just some fiction made up to prove a point ...there is no medicine other than maybe a gestalt here and there and some Aesop fable thing happening ...

take Orwellian fiction like 1984 and add this chant from Bowie's diamond dogs which followed his big brother and 1984 songs on the album..
Orwell being buddha and Bowie being Lord Nagarjuna..
phpBB [video]


this is what Q has denigrated it to.

Actually it is fair of him or anyone to have some need to toss out any possibility that The Ceremony in The Air never actually happens and that it only happened on paper..

some people's ego's might not allow it or their is peer pressure.

And so we have these Modern high Priests Zyphron dudes ,and their scholarly take on it, and intellectualizing the bejjeevers out of it...

which is my point about the latter day of law being none other than that...not some physiological astronomy mystic thing..not some over the top Evil ness blinding everyone...but just that...an age where intellect out weighs possibility ...an age where we no longer can believe in Nagas..we delegate them to fantasy metaphors..

My Naga King Kundalini thing is not even on the radar except in my posts...

The Daimoku and the Gohonzon would have the same power as the Bowie chant, if this ceremony was not played out by the Buddha...

this isn't fundamentalism , it's what the Lotus Sutra is.


also for those of you that might not have read this..

Minobu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:


This sutra deals with the original mind [of enlightenment] in the waking state. But because living beings are accustomed to thinking in the mental terms appropriate to a dream state, it borrows the language of the dream state in order to teach the waking state of the original mind. However, though the language is that employed in a dream state, the intention behind it is to give instruction in the waking state of the original mind. This is the aim of both the text of the Lotus Sutra itself and of the commentaries on it. If one does not clearly understand this, one will invariably misunderstand the wording of both the sutra and its commentaries.

-Nichiren, Unanimous Declaration of the Buddhas

this piece always make feel how familiar Nichiren Shonin is with His sutra. I say His , for He really made it His own.
We all can do the same .Of course we are not Nichiren Shonin..i put that in, out of respect.

What comes to mind is a sort of secret peek into something missed by most. Not unlike a Carnival and getting to know one of the Carnies who allows you a peek behind the Midway ....


The piece is a peek into the Buddha's Way..and His knowledge of what we are in our reality, and how He Helps us in our dream state.


but the peek behind the curtain was about Nichiren Shonin's take on it..His words...not the Lotus Sutra itself is showing us something behind the curtain which seems some might have jumped to.

And i asked if this was an authentic gosho passage and have not confirmed it...it sounds like it might not even be Nichiren Daishonin's words...if it isn't ...it's just another High Priest of scholarly ego stab at delegating the Ceremony in the Air to intellectual property and not historic , albeit other worldly history

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:07 am

Queequeg wrote:Ziporyn's approach is pretty iconoclastic and outrageous at times.


I sensed that, reading the reviews and abstracts of his books. Don't know if he would be my cup of tea, really, but as his books are in my uni library, will consider for next visit. Thanks.

@The Cicada - very perceptive quote from Campbell. That's one for the scrap-book. There are 'myths that are truer than history', I read somewhere once.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby ItsRaining » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:23 am

Queequeg wrote:The Parable of the Burning House is not the only story where the Buddha appears to be lying.

There are so called Seven Parables in the Lotus Sutra -

The Parable of the Burning House (Chapter 3)
The Parable of the Rich Man and his Poor Son (Chapter 4)
The Parable of the Medicinal Herbs (Chapter 5)
The Parable of the Phantom City (Chapter 7)
The Parable of the Parable of the Jewel in the Robe (Chapter 8)
The Parable of the Parable of the Bright Jewel (Chapter 10)
The Parable of the Skilled Physician and his Sick Children (Chapter 16)

There is an element of intentional misdirection in four of those parables (Chapters 3, 4, 7, and 16). While all of the stories involve some level of ignorance, two chapters emphasize the limited capacities .....


Wow, this is a great summary of the Lotus Sutra!

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:43 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Queequeg wrote:The Parable of the Burning House is not the only story where the Buddha appears to be lying.

There are so called Seven Parables in the Lotus Sutra -

The Parable of the Burning House (Chapter 3)
The Parable of the Rich Man and his Poor Son (Chapter 4)
The Parable of the Medicinal Herbs (Chapter 5)
The Parable of the Phantom City (Chapter 7)
The Parable of the Parable of the Jewel in the Robe (Chapter 8)
The Parable of the Parable of the Bright Jewel (Chapter 10)
The Parable of the Skilled Physician and his Sick Children (Chapter 16)

There is an element of intentional misdirection in four of those parables (Chapters 3, 4, 7, and 16). While all of the stories involve some level of ignorance, two chapters emphasize the limited capacities .....


Wow, this is a great summary of the Lotus Sutra!


Yes, this is one of the traditional analyses of the Sutra. I think it emphasizes the message of upaya when the parables are singled out from the text.
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:18 pm

The Cicada wrote:Maybe beings from other worlds and realms look at our brightest minds the way we look at Aristotle, who was the kind of person that would thick-headedly assume that because something is so that it must necessarily be so. Very presumptive for a mind that was relatively rigorous in relation to his contemporaries and most minds today.


In the Vimalakirti Sutra, Vimalkirti sends a conjured bodhisattva to receive alms in a world where the beings communicate by fragrances. The bodhisattvas of that land are curious about this Saha world that they hear is so difficult. The Buddha of that land tells these bodhisattvas:

“However, withdraw the fragrance of your bodies, so as not to cause the sentient beings there to generate thoughts of deluded attachment. Also, you should forsake your original forms, so as not to cause those seeking to become bodhisattvas in that country to be ashamed of themselves. In addition, you must not harbor feelings of belittlement or thoughts of the hindrances [present in that world]. Why? The countries of the ten directions are all like space (i.e., devoid of fixed reality). Furthermore, [you should realize] that the buddhas do not completely manifest their pure lands solely in order to convert those who delight in inferior dharmas.”

When they arrive, they explain to Vimalakirti, “In our land the Tathāgata explains [the Dharma] without words. He simply uses the host of fragrances to make the gods and humans enter into the practice of the Vinaya. The bodhisattvas each sit beneath fragrant trees, smelling such wondrous fragrances, from which they attain the ‘samādhi of the repository of all virtues.’ Those who attain this samādhi all become replete in the merits of the bodhisattva.”

They ask, how does Shakyamuni teach the beings here? Vimalakirti explains, "Since the minds of people so difficult to convert are like monkeys, one must use several types of Dharma to control their minds, so that they can be disciplined. It is like elephants and horses who are stubborn and uncontrollable, who can only be disciplined by making them suffer to the bone. Because the sentient beings [of this world] are obdurate like this, [Śākyamuni] uses all sorts of painfully strict language to get [sentient beings] to enter into the Vinaya.”

In the Lotus Sutra, a bodhisattva of a far off land wants to come and pay homage to Shakyamuni, and the Buddha of that other world instructs the bodhisattva, “You must not despise that world nor think it inferior. O son of a virtuous family! The land of that sahā world is uneven and irregular and is filled with mud, stones, mountains, and filth. The Buddha is short of body, as are the bodhisattvas. By contrast, your body is forty-two thousand yojanas tall, and my body is six million eight hundred thousand yojanas tall. Your body is perfect in its bearing and illuminated most beautifully with hundreds of millions of merits. Yet, when you go there you must not despise that country nor think the Buddha, bodhisattvas, or the world itself inferior.”

Compared to some beings in the universe, we're like slugs. How would one go about teaching Dharma to a slug? Metaphors about slime and salt?
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Tolya M » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:16 pm

How exactly is that not lying?


Because there are no cetasikas, which define a false speech.
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:20 pm

Minobu wrote:this is what Q has denigrated it to.


Right, so because I point out that a text that calls all other teachings of the Buddha an expedient might itself be an expedient, I'm the bad guy who has taken all the wonder and mystery out of life and destroyed the religious life.

:shrug: :smile:
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:28 pm

Tolya M wrote:
How exactly is that not lying?


Because there are no cetasikas, which define a false speech.


That is interesting...

What are the cetasikas of false speech?
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Tolya M » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:05 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tolya M wrote:
How exactly is that not lying?


Because there are no cetasikas, which define a false speech.


That is interesting...

What are the cetasikas of false speech?


In a case of sravaka the right speech is abstaining from: lying, slandering, harsh speech, frivolous talk. So all akusala cetasikas. Even if you are an ordinary person, then to say about sweets to save someone is not a lie in the Buddhist sense.

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:50 am

I'm not very familiar with abhidarma... But to analyze this...

So, there is no intention to deceive the children, but rather the father seeks to draw the children out of the house... He communicates a statement, the effect of which is anticipated to achieve this effect based on the desires of the children. The statement is not intended to convey the substance of the statement and therefore it is technically not false speech. The statement has the desired effect... But now the children are confused... As an afterthought the father gives a gift greater than what he promised... But that is irrelevant, really, the point is the children are out of the house...
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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Minobu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:34 am

Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote:this is what Q has denigrated it to.


Right, so because I point out that a text that calls all other teachings of the Buddha an expedient might itself be an expedient, I'm the bad guy who has taken all the wonder and mystery out of life and destroyed the religious life.

:shrug: :smile:
Instead of cut and pasting your posts...lets just say you have decided that it never happened.
this whole talk of the stories being lies and the Buddha lied is just absurd.

they are tales with meaning... we know them..He never intended for us now to see that He lied...wish we could put all that where it belongs...

i'm more concerned that you no longer believe the part where the Ceramony happens..
i've ben there and back and back and forth for decades.

so you still Da Man...i don;t think you are a bad guy...i learn from you and you makle me grow,,,always have...years ago you did...
spell check is broken...

not a metaphor ..just saying.
So like you got me to this new angle on what exactly the latter day of the law actually means..

Q there's no magik in you...you are all logic and nuts and bolts...i'm all magik...i watched magik happen...anyway...so like lets stay real spell check is broke and cut and pasting is too tedious...It's not so much a santa Claus thing as it really did happen...like the time i plucked this branch from a tree in the pure land that grows magic jewels instead of fruit...the jewel is still in the branch...it's quite fantastic...all sorts of stuff in Pure Land...Tara is in a lake and you can see Her ...there is a tourquise Ocean...i've said too much...

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Minobu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:28 pm

Minobu wrote:
Q there's no magik in you...you are all logic and nuts and bolts...i'm all magik...i watched magik happen...anyway...so like lets stay real spell check is broke and cut and pasting is too tedious...It's not so much a santa Claus thing as it really did happen...like the time i plucked this branch from a tree in the pure land that grows magic jewels instead of fruit...the jewel is still in the branch...it's quite fantastic...all sorts of stuff in Pure Land...Tara is in a lake and you can see Her ...there is a tourquise Ocean...i've said too much...





lies all lies Minobu!!!! you've never been to the Pure land...
i would like to know where the Tree is though..don't they have some sort of park Warden to stop you from stealing stuff there.

ok enough of this...the point is this....if i write something like that..is it true...?????
could be if you believe in the pure land......

But seriously is it true????

Now we have a sutra that claims there was this ceremony in the air where multitudes of enlightened beings came to listen and was witnessed by this very special Buddha in Tower like stupa.....

the difference is this...one is the meanderings of some online bloke and the other is a Sutra...


i would like also to take up the fact that the sutra lets us know that the parables are parables by actually telling you that they are parables...LOL...doesn't anyone else see the irony in posts after post discussing whether the Buddha is a lier

the Ceremony is never delegated to anything but an event that happens when a Buddha reveals the Saddharmapundarika Sutra.
when we chant to Gohonzon we are supposed to be taking part in that very ceremony...

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Queequeg » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Minobu wrote:Instead of cut and pasting your posts...lets just say you have decided that it never happened.
this whole talk of the stories being lies and the Buddha lied is just absurd.


So, you're saying:

1. I don't believe in the Ceremony in the Air.
2. That I am calling the Buddha a liar.
3. And I hide behind selective copy pasta.

You know, you snapped at Cicada earlier in this thread, but you guys have something in common - both of you think I'm icchantika.

Look, don't worry about what I believe. Counting my money will not earn you a dime... unless you're my accountant... I'm not counting yours.

With that, I take my leave.
:cheers:

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Re: Question about Burning House Parable in Lotus Sutra

Postby Minobu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:41 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote:Instead of cut and pasting your posts...lets just say you have decided that it never happened.
this whole talk of the stories being lies and the Buddha lied is just absurd.


So, you're saying:

1. I don't believe in the Ceremony in the Air.
2. That I am calling the Buddha a liar.
3. And I hide behind selective copy pasta.

You know, you snapped at Cicada earlier in this thread, but you guys have something in common - both of you think I'm icchantika.

Look, don't worry about what I believe. Counting my money will not earn you a dime... unless you're my accountant... I'm not counting yours.

With that, I take my leave.
:cheers:
first up i did not snap at cicada , i saw where he was coming from is all..

1; i don;t really know what you believe about the Ceremony.
2. i never said that , i thought i made it clear it was others who said this and you made it clear that he wasn't.
3. no idea what that is...but i was just tired to quote all the stuff you said to prove a point.

please do not use me and the last couple of posts to do what i think you have been longing to do for awhile...

you changed since you read this Zippy dude. it's like intellectual poisoning....and that is my opinion..

i adore intellectuals when they are spot on...but now when they dissect a Sutra to this level ...they turn it into a fiction.

Queequeg wrote:The way I see it, the whole Lotus Sutra is told with a knowing grin ... a story to prepare the listener for exposure to reality...


Or, maybe that whole story about a giant UFO levitating the assembly is 100% true... :thinking:


Queequeg wrote::rolling:
.. great fiction can actually tell profound truths that transcend the words of the story... The Lotus in the very least is a masterpiece of literature...


to me there are no lies in The lotus sutra , unless you take a parable for being a lie. And i find that absurd...now if you think the rest of it is just an expedient means i differ..and i thought that there were two aspects to the Sutra an expedient and a real thing..

the rest of The Sutra to me is historic on some level or plain of existence where it gets played out with multitudes of witnesses allowed to witness it through the buddha's powers.

now if you want to say that power is happening now in the discourse we are having...that the event actually only happens in the sort of discourse we are having..and thats it...well i'm cool with that too...what ever floats your boat to be part of the whole votary of the Lotus thing....

but well maybe i am a fundamentalist then..

Are you really taking the football home with you? :tantrum:


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