Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

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Nicholas Weeks
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Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

At last, a clear translation of the Mahayana-sutra-lamkara ! Dr. Doctor and the Dharmachakra Trans. Committee have done a wondrous thing. It is about 1000 pages with commentary by Ju Mipham and gloss of Khenpo Shenga; also charts, notes, bibliography, glossaries and index. Published by Snow Lion

Too soon for a review, just arrived today. But it is a vast improvement over the earlier effort by Dr. Thurman.
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

This version is a must have for any lover of the buddhadharma. One could learn and practice the bodhisattva way from this single text and be certain to of your beneficent path!
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Leo Rivers »

In what manner does it compare to this,
Universal Vehicle Discourse Literature (Mahayanasutralamkara) (Treasury of the Buddhist Sciences)
Jan 5, 2005
by Maitreyanatha / Aryasanga and The AIBS team
Hardcover
$47.15$56.00
a version whose choise of terms often bugged me the way that greek myth version of the Lotus Sutra did.

:reading:
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lorem
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by lorem »

Will wrote:This version is a must have for any lover of the buddhadharma. One could learn and practice the bodhisattva way from this single text and be certain to of your beneficent path!
Hey thanks for sharing. They also have other translations that look interesting!
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Greg
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Greg »

Leo Rivers wrote:In what manner does it compare to this,
Universal Vehicle Discourse Literature (Mahayanasutralamkara) (Treasury of the Buddhist Sciences)
Jan 5, 2005
by Maitreyanatha / Aryasanga and The AIBS team
Hardcover
$47.15$56.00
a version whose choise of terms often bugged me the way that greek myth version of the Lotus Sutra did.

:reading:
That is the Thurman version to which will referred.
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lorem
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by lorem »

Greg wrote:
Leo Rivers wrote:In what manner does it compare to this,
Universal Vehicle Discourse Literature (Mahayanasutralamkara) (Treasury of the Buddhist Sciences)
Jan 5, 2005
by Maitreyanatha / Aryasanga and The AIBS team
Hardcover
$47.15$56.00
a version whose choise of terms often bugged me the way that greek myth version of the Lotus Sutra did.

:reading:
That is the Thurman version to which will referred.
Thank you I wondered that last night. I didn't see another one. I'm going to order the new translation. The language in the other is a little obtuse although I bow down to all translators cause that is crazy-hard job.

Yeah I was wondering because Thurman's other stuff I like.

EDIT Maybe because more academic work? Maybe because multiple translators? Maybe just subject matter.
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lorem
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by lorem »

Greg wrote:
Leo Rivers wrote:In what manner does it compare to this,
Universal Vehicle Discourse Literature (Mahayanasutralamkara) (Treasury of the Buddhist Sciences)
Jan 5, 2005
by Maitreyanatha / Aryasanga and The AIBS team
Hardcover
$47.15$56.00
a version whose choise of terms often bugged me the way that greek myth version of the Lotus Sutra did.

:reading:
That is the Thurman version to which will referred.
It's 44.01 on Amazon with free shipping. (How does anything else ever stay in business?)
I should be meditating.
Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Mipham's topical outline is an essential for getting an overview, for the Table of Contents give just chapter heads. However, the flow chart of the outline does not give the verse numbers that match the varied sub-heads. But that is not so terrible, for I am going through and pencilling in the verse numbers and learning much.

Still have not read too deeply into it, so the only quibble I have is the use of 'wakefulness' for jnana. The conventional use of wisdom or knowledge or understanding conveys the flavor better. Yes, they are probably trying to point out how the 'awareness' of this type of jnana is so very different from conceptional notions, but being 'awake' hardly conveys anything to non-buddhas.

Still, this version will be the English standard, until it is not.
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Leo Rivers »

Try ordering the dissertaion by D’AMATO, Mario. “The Mahayana-Hinayana Distinction in the Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra: A Terminological Analysis.” of Chicago, 2000. I have used it to orient my look at this text. Almost evey paragraph is a way of looking at what I thought I knew about my religion. The Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra is a Cliff-Notes Bodhisattva Bhumi. The Yogacara re-invented itself constantly on the fly between 200 and 600 CE.. My major concern is the way a kagyud or nyingma presentation my not clarify the distinction between the [actual] yogacara and the shentong... and use a tantra shentong reading of a sutra text in an an ananchronistic way... a distinction clear to the lama but not to the reader.
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

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Leo Rivers wrote:Try ordering the dissertaion by D’AMATO, Mario. “The Mahayana-Hinayana Distinction in the Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra: A Terminological Analysis.” of Chicago, 2000. I have used it to orient my look at this text. Almost evey paragraph is a way of looking at what I thought I knew about my religion. The Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra is a Cliff-Notes Bodhisattva Bhumi. The Yogacara re-invented itself constantly on the fly between 200 and 600 CE.. My major concern is the way a kagyud or nyingma presentation my not clarify the distinction between the [actual] yogacara and the shentong... and use a tantra shentong reading of a sutra text in an an ananchronistic way... a distinction clear to the lama but not to the reader.
Leo,
When you actually read this translation, then let us know what your impression is. I am not so wise that I can parse viewpoints so finely, especially when the Mahayana views are all adequate to inspire one on the Buddha path.

I would like to see another translation (sans Thurmanisms) of Vasubandhu's comments, or Sthiramati's longer commentary on the Ornament.
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Leo Rivers »

. I am not so wise that I can parse viewpoints so finely,

Hah! You are a dude I'd ask when stumpt. :bow:
especially when the Mahayana views are all adequate to inspire one on the Buddha path.
That's an interesting responce... really deeper than it may seem. The Buddha himself eshewed discriminations saying effectively "the bubbles will come when the pot gets to a boil". But what constitutes "Right Mahayana", the simple core that guarentees "no falling back" - the rest being parseley on the steak dinner plat at Sizzler?

My own interest is the "course corrections" Asanga and Vasubandhu thought neccessary to prevent Tathagata drift... a concern definitely at odds with 99% of the Asian take on these things. I kind of think of myself as An Old Testement Mahayanist. :lol:
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Paul
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Paul »

Will wrote:At last, a clear translation of the Mahayana-sutra-lamkara ! Dr. Doctor and the Dharmachakra Trans. Committee have done a wondrous thing.
Which of the Doctor brothers did this?
Will wrote:Still have not read too deeply into it, so the only quibble I have is the use of 'wakefulness' for jnana. The conventional use of wisdom or knowledge or understanding conveys the flavor better. Yes, they are probably trying to point out how the 'awareness' of this type of jnana is so very different from conceptional notions, but being 'awake' hardly conveys anything to non-buddhas.
I think 'wakefulness' is used because it is used in the Rangjung Yeshe Books texts as a term for mind essence, ie Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's 'Present Fresh Wakefulness'.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Malcolm »

Paul wrote:
Will wrote:At last, a clear translation of the Mahayana-sutra-lamkara ! Dr. Doctor and the Dharmachakra Trans. Committee have done a wondrous thing.
Which of the Doctor brothers did this?
Will wrote:Still have not read too deeply into it, so the only quibble I have is the use of 'wakefulness' for jnana. The conventional use of wisdom or knowledge or understanding conveys the flavor better. Yes, they are probably trying to point out how the 'awareness' of this type of jnana is so very different from conceptional notions, but being 'awake' hardly conveys anything to non-buddhas.
I think 'wakefulness' is used because it is used in the Rangjung Yeshe Books texts as a term for mind essence, ie Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's 'Present Fresh Wakefulness'.
Wakefulness (bodhatā) for jñāna is a huge stretch.
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Thomas Doctor was the lead translator, along with Duckworth, Dahl, Parish et al.
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

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Discussion about rebirth moved here:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 99&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Truly a key text that has so many wonderful verses!

Anyone else going through it now?
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Did Chinese tradition pay much attention to this text? Were there any major commentaries on it? And of course, any English translations existing or in the pipeline?

Also anyone familiar with this translation? -- http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Mahayanasut ... /10652.htm
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by WuMing »

As to how much the Chinese did pay attention to this text, that's something I do not know. But I am sure that the Ven. HuiFeng could answer that question, if his time permits to do so, and given that he reads this post/thread.

Here is what the DDB (source)says about it:
大乘莊嚴經論
Pronunciations
[py] Dàshèng zhuāngyán jīng lùn
[wg] Ta-sheng chuang-yen ching lun
[hg] 대승장엄경론
[mc] Daeseung jang-eom gyeong non
[mr] Taesŭng chang'ŏm kyŏng non
[kk] ダイジョウソウゴンキョウロン
[hb] Daijō sōgon kyō ron
[qn] Đại thừa trang nghiêm kinh luận

Basic Meaning: Treatise on the Scripture of Adorning the Great Vehicle

Senses:
Dasheng zhuangyanjing lun (Mahāyāna-sūtrâlaṃkāra). 13 fasc.; attributed to Asaṅga 無著. T 1604.31.589b-661c. According to some traditions, the verses were written by Maitreya 彌勒, and were expanded into prose form by Asaṅga, or his brother Vasubandhu 世親. Translated into Chinese by Prabhākaramitra 波羅頗蜜多羅 during 630–633. There is also a Tibetan translation. It is an important text for the Yogâcāra school 瑜伽行派, being one of the eleven treatises on which the Cheng weishi lun 成唯識論 is based. It is comprised of twenty-four chapters, the content of which are almost exactly the same as that of the Chapter of the Bodhisattva Stages in the Yogâcārabhūmi-śāstra 瑜伽論, with the most important discussions being in regard to: the bodhisattvas seeds 種姓, arousal of intention to save sentient beings 發心, faith and understanding 信解, six perfections 六波羅蜜, and the merits of practice 功德. Abbreviated as 大乘莊嚴論. [Charles Muller; source(s): Hirakawa, JEBD,Iwanami]
A translation into a Western language from the Taisho edition T1604 there is only (AFAIK) one existing into French
translated by: Lévi, Sylvain
Mahāyāna-Sūtralaṃkāra: Exposé de la doctrine du Grand Véhicule selon le système Yogācāra. Tome II: Traduction. – Introduction. –Index
Paris: Champion, 1911. [Reprint 1983 in Rinsen Sanskrit Text Series 4, II.]
and a partial translation into German
translated by: Schayer, St
“Die Erlösungslehren der Yogācāra’s nach dem Sūtralaṃkāra des Asaṅga.”
Zeitschrift für Indologie und Iranistik (Leipzig) 2 (1923), 98–123.
Will wrote:... Also anyone familiar with this translation? -- http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Mahayanasut ... /10652.htm
Here is a review on amazon.com which may give a hint on this book, if you haven't read it already.
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by WuMing »

There is an article of Professor Nagao Gadjin in the book "Buddhist Studies - The Legacy of Gadjin M. Nagao" in which he states:
The Chinese translation of the MSA was created by Prabhakaramitra (T.1604) just before the time of Hsüan-tsang, but it seems not to have been much studied in the history of Buddhism in the East.
By the East he probably means the Far East.

So, the Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras was probably not widely studied in Chinese Buddhism.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Thanks WuMing.

Found this four language version from the U. of Oslo. It has transliterated Sanskrit, Tibetan, plus French and Chinese:

http://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index. ... ext&vid=85
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